Arminianism and Calvinism are not that different

[Particular]

Once again no answers, but the change the subject ploy. This is all they have because they must hide the truth.
Questions to be dodged, sidestepped, ignored and deflected:[/QUOTE Let me address your 3 questions.

1) Why is it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God?
Being rich would have nothing to do with it if unconditional election were true.​

Because no matter the human condition, you cannot enter the Kingdom, unless God chooses to make you a citizen. No matter how rich (self-enriched) you are, you cannot enter except you be one of God's chosen sheep.

2) Why could our faith be in vain, if it was instilled by irresistible grace?
God would not instill faith in falsehood.

It is not in vain if God has gifted it to us. It is in vain if we imagine we created it and built it ourselves. See the rich man comment above.

3) Why did Paul speak to newborn Christians as to men of flesh, if men of flesh could not grow on spiritual milk?

Christians are still sinful humans whose flesh is in rebellion. We must address our fleshly nature as Paul does.

 

[Van]

Let me [Particular] address your 3 questions.

1) Why is it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God?
Being rich would have nothing to do with it if unconditional election were true.

Because no matter the human condition, you cannot enter the Kingdom, unless God chooses to make you a citizen. No matter how rich (self-enriched) you are, you cannot enter except you be one of God's chosen sheep.

2) Why could our faith be in vain, if it was instilled by irresistible grace?
God would not instill faith in falsehood.

It is not in vain if God has gifted it to us. It is in vain if we imagine we created it and built it ourselves. See the rich man comment above.

3) Why did Paul speak to newborn Christians as to men of flesh, if men of flesh could not grow on spiritual milk?

Christians are still sinful humans whose flesh is in rebellion. We must address our fleshly nature as Paul does.

Response to the answers provided by Particular:

Three more deflections avoiding the questions.
1) No answer provided for the reason why it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom. The fact that we must be chosen to enter is not in dispute, but why it would be harder for a rich man to be chosen. Answer, unconditional election is bogus.

2) First they say we cannot have faith in God because we hate God at all times. Then they say we can have "vain faith" not instilled by irresistible grace. Wheels within wheels, folks, nonsense to hide nonsense. Our faith could not be in vain if it was instilled by irresistible grace. Answer, the gift of faith is bogus.

3) Obfuscation on display. Paul spoke as to men of flesh using spiritual milk, therefore logical necessity dictates men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk. Any other answer is twaddle.​

 

[Particular]

Let me [Particular] address your 3 questions.

1) Why is it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God?
Being rich would have nothing to do with it if unconditional election were true.

Because no matter the human condition, you cannot enter the Kingdom, unless God chooses to make you a citizen. No matter how rich (self-enriched) you are, you cannot enter except you be one of God's chosen sheep.

2) Why could our faith be in vain, if it was instilled by irresistible grace?
God would not instill faith in falsehood.

It is not in vain if God has gifted it to us. It is in vain if we imagine we created it and built it ourselves. See the rich man comment above.

3) Why did Paul speak to newborn Christians as to men of flesh, if men of flesh could not grow on spiritual milk?

Christians are still sinful humans whose flesh is in rebellion. We must address our fleshly nature as Paul does.

Response to the answers provided by Particular:

Three more deflections avoiding the questions.
1) No answer provided for the reason why it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom. The fact that we must be chosen to enter is not in dispute, but why it would be harder for a rich man to be chosen. Answer, unconditional election is bogus.

2) First they say we cannot have faith in God because we hate God at all times. Then they say we can have "vain faith" not instilled by irresistible grace. Wheels within wheels, folks, nonsense to hide nonsense. Our faith could not be in vain if it was instilled by irresistible grace. Answer, the gift of faith is bogus.

3) Obfuscation on display. Paul spoke as to men of flesh using spiritual milk, therefore logical necessity dictates men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk. Any other answer is twaddle.​

Van, I answered you. The fact is, you reject what I say. I can live with your rejection.

 

[Van]

Van, I answered you. The fact is, you reject what I say. I can live with your rejection.

Well we can agree on that, I reject what you said, for the reasons I said.

We can certainly agree Calvinism and Arminianism share concepts.

1) Christ died for all mankind or some of mankind.
2) God's choice for salvation of individuals is based on faith or is not based on faith.
3) Once saved always saved or perhaps you are able to become unreborn.
4) God's grace is irresistible or resistible.
5) God's exhaustive knowledge of the future foreordains everything or not.
6) God allows people to appropriately respond to the general call of the gospel or not.

Yep, two peas in a pod! Both hold correct and erroneous views of scripture.

 

[Alan Gross]

3) Salvation could be eternal

When someone says that they don't know one way or another what they are talking about, I believe them.

 

[Van]

When someone says that they don't know one way or another what they are talking about, I believe them.

Everyone who believes salvation is forever believes salvation could be eternal. The only correct view presented by the TULIP is once saved always saved.

 

[Dave G]

1) Why is it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God?
Being rich would have nothing to do with it if unconditional election were true.

"Unconditional election" is true.

If you don't mind the question, is there something that makes you think that being rich or being poor predisposes anyone from seeking God?
While it is true that rich men rely on their riches more than the poor, making themselves even less likely to seek God, there is none that seek God in and of ourselves ( Romans 3:10-12 ).

Furthermore, the reason why there are less rich men in the kingdom of Heaven than poor, is because of God's specific choice of a certain segment of humanity to be His elect.
This is answered in 1 Corinthians 1:19-31:

" Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence." ( 1 Corinthians :25-29 ).

As well as James 2:5:

" Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" ( James 2:5 ).

In order to confound the wisdom of this world and to abase men, He specifically chooses people that the world does not think "deserve" salvation, to be recipients of the gift.

2) Why could our faith be in vain, if it was instilled by irresistible grace?
God would not instill faith in falsehood.

I agree.

Vain faith is only found in those who are tares.."false brethren".
If it were found in true believers, then salvation could be lost.
But the Bible specifically says that those that endure to the end shall be saved.

God's children have the gift of true faith, authored and finished by their Saviour ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
That is the "faith" spoken of throughout the Bible...
Faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for them, that endures all the trials and tribulations of this life.

3) Why did Paul speak to newborn Christians as to men of flesh, if men of flesh could not grow on spiritual milk?

Because newly converted believers have a new nature that is in its infancy.
They are more "carnal" than spiritual.

As they grow, they put off the works of the flesh more and more, and learn to walk in newness of life.
They overcome the world, the flesh and the devil by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

Those that do not have the Spirit are the "natural man", with the "carnal" mind that is at enmity with God...whether they profess Christ as Saviour, or not.
Those that do have the Spirit are the "spiritual man" with the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:14-16 )...

 

[Dave G]

Three more deflections avoiding the questions.
1) No answer provided for the reason why it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom. The fact that we must be chosen to enter is not in dispute, but why it would be harder for a rich man to be chosen. Answer, unconditional election is bogus.

2) First they say we cannot have faith in God because we hate God at all times. Then they say we can have "vain faith" not instilled by irresistible grace. Wheels within wheels, folks, nonsense to hide nonsense. Our faith could not be in vain if it was instilled by irresistible grace. Answer, the gift of faith is bogus.

3) Obfuscation on display. Paul spoke as to men of flesh using spiritual milk, therefore logical necessity dictates men of flesh can understand and respond to spiritual milk. Any other answer is twaddle.

1) See above.

Unconditional election is a fact of Scripture.
It is also the only thing that makes salvation truly of grace, and does not involve things that a person can potentially take credit for, in order to gain God's favor and result in Him giving them that gift of eternal life.

In addition, here it seems you are contradicting yourself.
On the one hand you say believers must be chosen to enter.
On the other, you state that unconditional election is bogus.

Question:

Is a person chosen, or aren't they?
If so, what is the condition...faith?
All men do not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

It's not that they have it and don't "exercise it"...it's that many simply do not have it...period.
They don't have it, because it hasn't been given to them ( Ephesians 2:8 ), to believe on Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Paul is speaking in absolutes, there.


2) See above.

Mankind hates God unless the heart is changed to be disposed towards Him, instead of against Him.
"Vain faith" is what people have that do not believe from the heart ( Romans 10:9-10 ) and that are of the first 3 "soils" in the parable of the sower.
They cannot bring forth true fruit, spiritually.

They always go back to the world and it's ways, and do not endure to the end of their lives, trusting in the Lord and prevailing through all their trials and tribulations without falling back into the world and its ways.
They are unable to continue in the word, learning of Christ and His doctrines, and are ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


3) See above.

Paul spoke to believers, not unbelievers.
They were not "men of flesh", despite their spiritual immaturity.
They were "of Christ" and "of God" ( John 8:47 ).
The words Paul spoke were not intended for the natural man who reads Scripture and is unable to discern it, spiritually ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

My advice?
As a believer, take "logic" and toss it out the window ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
We as believers trust God's word implicitly.

Because of that trust ( and the fact that we are born again and have His Spirit within us ), our way of thinking gets changed by it...instead of His word being subject to our way of thinking.
If you're looking to subject God's word to your understanding, then much of it will only seem contradictory, Van.

"Obfuscation"?
No.
Someone who is taking the time to explain things, Scripturally, is not obfuscating, Van.
They are "laboring".

Trust the Lord to show you as you dig in and study His word, deeply.
It will pay off, if you are His.


I wish you well, sir.

 

[Alan Gross]

Everyone who believes salvation is forever believes salvation could be eternal. The only correct view presented by the TULIP is once saved always saved.

I believe you, when you say you don't know what you are talking about, at all, one way or another.

Those are your creditials and qualifications.

You admit you don't know.

'Salvation may, or may not be, Salvation', could have been Written Down, by God, and saved Him a lot of paper.

 

[Particular]

Yep, two peas in a pod! Both hold correct and erroneous views of scripture.

Again, you set yourself up as the judge of what is a correct and erroneous view of scripture. I consider your opinion irrelevant.

 

[Van]

"Unconditional election" is true.

If you don't mind the question, is there something that makes you think that being rich or being poor predisposes anyone from seeking God?
While it is true that rich men rely on their riches more than the poor, making themselves even less likely to seek God, there is none that seek God in and of ourselves ( Romans 3:10-12 ).

Furthermore, the reason why there are less rich men in the kingdom of Heaven than poor, is because of God's specific choice of a certain segment of humanity to be His elect.
This is answered in 1 Corinthians 1:19-31:

" Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence." ( 1 Corinthians :25-29 ).

As well as James 2:5:

" Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" ( James 2:5 ).

In order to confound the wisdom of this world and to abase men, He specifically chooses people that the world does not think "deserve" salvation, to be recipients of the gift.

I agree.

Vain faith is only found in those who are tares.."false brethren".
If it were found in true believers, then salvation could be lost.
But the Bible specifically says that those that endure to the end shall be saved.

God's children have the gift of true faith, authored and finished by their Saviour ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
That is the "faith" spoken of throughout the Bible...
Faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for them, that endures all the trials and tribulations of this life.

Because newly converted believers have a new nature that is in its infancy.
They are more "carnal" than spiritual.

As they grow, they put off the works of the flesh more and more, and learn to walk in newness of life.
They overcome the world, the flesh and the devil by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

Those that do not have the Spirit are the "natural man", with the "carnal" mind that is at enmity with God...whether they profess Christ as Saviour, or not.
Those that do have the Spirit are the "spiritual man" with the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:14-16 )...

If election for salvation was unconditional, God would not say it is harder for the rich man to enter the kingdom, it would be exactly the same.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 makes the case once again, God choose individuals with regard to their characteristics, with self sufficiency being off putting.

And again, James 2:5 says God chose those (1) poor to the world, (2) rich in faith, and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God.

Thus in every passage cited, conditional election is proclaimed loud and clear.

Dave, you are the second defender of Calvinism that says people who are spiritually dead in their sins, can seek God by putting their faith, not God's instilled faith, in the gospel. You did this is the same post with saying there is none that seek God.

Hebrews 12:2 does not say or suggest "the gift of true faith."

Next you seem to say "men of flesh" are not natural men, unregenerates. But of course "men of flesh" are unregenerates, and of course they can understand spiritual milk.

 

[Van]

Dave's assertions in black, Van's responses in red.

Unconditional election is a fact of Scripture.
Unconditional election for salvation is a fiction, James 2:5.

In addition, here it seems you are contradicting yourself.
On the one hand you say believers must be chosen to enter.
On the other, you state that unconditional election is bogus.

Choosing believers is a conditional election.

Question:

Is a person chosen, or aren't they?

Yes, individuals whose faith God credits as righteousness are chosen for salvation.

All men do not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

No one said all people put their wholehearted trust and devotion in Christ. A non-issue

It's not that they have it and don't "exercise it"...it's that many simply do not have it...period.
They don't have it, because it hasn't been given to them ( Ephesians 2:8 ), to believe on Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Philippians 1:29 indicates they were allowed to understand and respond, thus they were not hardened.
Ephesians 2:8 says salvation is the gift, but it is through faith, thus those saved gained access to that grace because God credited their faith as righteousness.

Mankind hates God unless the heart is changed to be disposed towards Him, instead of against Him.

False, some people some of the time set their minds on spiritual things. Matthew 23:13

"Vain faith" is what people have that do not believe from the heart

"Vain faith" is faith of an individual that has not been credited as righteousness.

Paul spoke to believers, not unbelievers.
They were not "men of flesh", despite their spiritual immaturity.

No one said they were men of flesh, but Paul spoke to them as to men of flesh.
The natural person can understand some things of the Spirit, spiritual milk, but cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat).

 

[Van]

I believe you, when you say you don't know what you are talking about, at all, one way or another.

Those are your credentials and qualifications.

You admit you don't know.

Yet another change the subject and question my qualifications.

 

[Van]

Again, you set yourself up as the judge of what is a correct and erroneous view of scripture. I consider your opinion irrelevant.

Why seek to change the subject to my qualifications. Answer, deflection of display.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another change the subject and question my qualifications.

There is no subject to change.

You have no qualifications.

A sinful human being's 'faith' is credited as filthy rags.

Sinful souls must be Convicted that there is something to be Saved from, before they know anything about the subject of Salvation.

Their own righteousness that gives them 'faith' that God credits as filthy rags.

 

[Particular]

Why seek to change the subject to my qualifications. Answer, deflection of display.

Your deflection tells me you have no qualifications above anyone else who is posting, therefore, your assertion is merely your opinion and not necessarily accurate/correct.
Since you have no legitimacy regarding judging this matter, I will take your opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah some would call it a General Call vs Effectual Call....

His will to have all sinners repent and trust in Jesus would fall under general call, while election is based upon His irresistible one?

 

[Van]

There is no subject to change.

You have no qualifications.

A sinful human being's 'faith' is credited as filthy rags.

Sinful souls must be Convicted that there is something to be Saved from, before they know anything about the subject of Salvation.

Their own righteousness that gives them 'faith' that God credits as filthy rags.

This is all they have, deny addressing my qualifications is a subject change from comparing Cal/Arm, invent a verse that says faith is credited as filthy rags, when the actual verse says faith is credited as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5.

Lastly they post something true, insinuating my position differs when it does not. The issue of needing to be convicted is not at issue.

On and on, deflection after deflection. Just read Romans 11 folks.

 

[Van]

Your deflection tells me you have no qualifications above anyone else who is posting, therefore, your assertion is merely your opinion and not necessarily accurate/correct.
Since you have no legitimacy regarding judging this matter, I will take your opinion with a grain of salt.

LOL who said I had qualifications above anyone else. All they do is spew one false charge after another.

I post the truth based on specific scriptures, and the denial says it is just my opinion. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3,
Matthew 23:13, and so forth.

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL who said I had qualifications above anyone else. All they do is spew one false charge after another.

I post the truth based on specific scriptures, and the denial says it is just my opinion. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3,
Matthew 23:13, and so forth.

You can keep on quoting scriptures, but the big problem is that you keep posting your misunderstandings on them!