Arminianism and Calvinism

[MennoSota]

Oh, no sir. That isn't it at all. He alone holds the consequences of our choices.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Your only choice was hell. You are indeed held responsible for that choice.
God never knew them because God had not written their names in the Lambs book of life.
Someone can claim to be a Christian all they want, but if God has not written their name down then God never knew them as His child.
Do you understand what I have just explained?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Apparently you are good at making claims unsubstatniated. How about delineating your reason for your statement.

Ppl no more choose to have faith than they can choose to make their heart beat.

To compare faith in a chair with faith in God is utter foolishness.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Everyone can and does know a true and living God exists. (Romans 1:19) Those who hear the gospel and reject it do so because they love evil more than God. (John 3:19-20) A lost man hears the gospel and believes because he is humble (Luke 18:13). He is broken, poor, captive, and blind. (Luke 4:18) Everyone who is saved fits into these categories. Jesus was not trying to be specific about these physical conditions but was pointing to the heart condition of them who are ready to hear the gospel and believe.

Paul saith that we should speak to people at their level. (I Cor 9:20-23) Scripture over and over again says that we must receive, believe and repent then we are saved. No where does it say or even suggest that we must be first regenerated. Jesus placed regeneration and salvation as the same side of the same coin in John 3.

Someone's being taught by Leighton Flowers. This is what he continually says.

He said he was saved because he humbled himself.

 

[Revmitchell]

Someone's being taught by Leighton Flowers. This is what he continually says.

He said he was saved because he humbled himself.

No he doesn't that is your characterization of him. Further I would say you are being taught by John Calvin, who was taught by Augustine. However, I have news for ya, We all think this way because it is what scripture says.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ppl no more choose to have faith than they can choose to make their heart beat.

To compare faith in a chair with faith in God is utter foolishness.

Well that is your opinion I will stick with scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

Have I ever, even once, said that we must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel?

We have to be more careful with our assumptions. Carelessness with the "other" view is often more divisive than legitimate differences.

I did not say you did.

 

[JonC]

I did not say you did.

No, you never did specifically say that I believed regeneration must come before faith. But you did quote me and proceed to argue against regeneration coming before faith. (Post #158)

I just wanted to be clear that I am not saying that men must be regenerated (here I mean "born again") in order to believe. All I am saying is that faith is not a matter of deciding between two options (it is not a choice in that way).

 

[TCassidy]

Well that is your opinion I will stick with scripture.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Someone's being taught by Leighton Flowers. This is what he continually says.

He said he was saved because he humbled himself.

Yes indeed....he is tuned into the podcast,lol look at this lasts months posts....you know where it came from

 

[JonC]

Yes indeed....he is tuned into the podcast,lol look at this lasts months posts....you know where it came from

Dr. Flowers has brought up topics that had relevance to the discussion (Cal/non-Cal discussions in general), but over the past couple of years his website has become an "anti" blog (standing against Calvinism rather than for Christ, even if under a different theological persuasion). I thought this very unfortunate (some of his comments seem to me as akin to the "campy" Calvinists we have had here in the past). There are decent conversations and views out there, though. (for example, on the Society of Evangelical Arminians' website Robert Picirilli has an interesting article "Towards a Non-deterministic Theology of Divine Providence" ....and no, if you are wondering, I don't agree with his conclusions ). But it is more much more honest than those blogs.

 

[MennoSota]

Well that is your opinion I will stick with scripture.

If you stick with scripture you will change your opinion...

 

[SovereignGrace]

No he doesn't that is your characterization of him. Further I would say you are being taught by John Calvin, who was taught by Augustine. However, I have news for ya, We all think this way because it is what scripture says.

He told Dr. White that very thing in their Romans 9 'debate'. Dr. White debated Romans 9, Flowers went everhwhere but that chapter.

Look it up...he said he humbled himself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well that is your opinion I will stick with scripture.

Since when do you stick with scripture? You continually rewrite the narrative to fit your ideology.

Your John 6 thread shows it. The gross misapplication of John 1:12,13. Then the foolishness of comparing faith in a chair with faith in God further proves you perpetually rewrite the narrative.

 

[Reynolds]

It could be either one. If I find myself in a situation not of my own making, I am there because I have an appointment with God. And He will either deliver me from that situation or give me the Grace to endure it.

If I find myself in a situation of my own making, I am there because I have an appointment with God, to teach me a lesson about the wages of sin.

Case in point. I have MS. Through no fault of my own. It is a terrible, debilitating, painful disease. But by God's Grace I am able to endure this affliction.

My dad died form lung cancer. He smoked two to three packs of unfiltered cigarettes every day for 50 years. Even though he was a saved man, God taught him, and used his affliction to teach others, that the wages of sin is death - even for a Christian.

Both fall within the will of God. One via no personal fault, and the other through great personal fault.

I don't mean this in any way hurtful. It is an issue that confuses me, but I do not know how to word it correctly. The lung cancer was a somewhat easy answer to understand. Situations such as yours are much more complicated. They confuse me. Is you being sick Gods perfect will or is it His permissive will? Does He want you in the condition you are in, or does He simply permit it due to the fallen world and the curse? If He wants people to be sick, why do people use medicine to attempt to rebel against His wishes? It honestly confuses me. If people truly believe sickness is Gods perfect will, why try to battle the sickness?

 

[TCassidy]

Is you being sick Gods perfect will or is it His permissive will?

There are two types of God's will. Decretal and Permissive. All of God's will is Perfect because He can be no less. But I believe my MS is part of His permissive will. See below for why I believe that.

Does He want you in the condition you are in, or does He simply permit it due to the fallen world and the curse?

My MS is genetic. Our genome is damaged by the fall. God permitted the fall and the damage to the genome which resulted from the fall. He permitted the sin which caused the fall, so the results are part of His permissive will.

If He wants people to be sick, why do people use medicine to attempt to rebel against His wishes?

As a testimony of his mercy? After all, the medicine I take is found in nature, and He is the creator of nature, so, to deny the power of medicine is to deny the power of God in nature. Remember, Jesus healed the sick. Therefore being healed is not a sin.

If people truly believe sickness is Gods perfect will, why try to battle the sickness?

You would have to ask someone who believes that.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't mean this in any way hurtful. It is an issue that confuses me, but I do not know how to word it correctly. The lung cancer was a somewhat easy answer to understand. Situations such as yours are much more complicated. They confuse me. Is you being sick Gods perfect will or is it His permissive will? Does He want you in the condition you are in, or does He simply permit it due to the fallen world and the curse? If He wants people to be sick, why do people use medicine to attempt to rebel against His wishes? It honestly confuses me. If people truly believe sickness is Gods perfect will, why try to battle the sickness?

Why not use medical treatments? Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his stomachs sake.
Do any of us know God's ordained will before the fact? We use wisdom, reason and best practice to do the best we can. Ultimately, however, we trust that God will sovereignly decide what will happen.
Read Job. Perhaps it will help alleviate your confusion.

 

[utilyan]

There is never an obligation to save rebels and criminals from their just punishment.
Utilyan, you act as though humans are sweet, cuddly teddy bears that are just too cute to have ever done anything evil. Do you have any biblical support for such a view of the human condition?

We are always obligated to save when capable. When you don't that act is called EVIL.

There is no obligation to act evil.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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