Arminianisms

[johnp.]

Hello J.D. nice to meet you.

So we see that God was not the author of sin, but sin was included in God's plan. There is no "plan A", oops, better go to "plan B". It was God's plan A all along, and that's all it ever will be.

This is what confuses them man, you say God is not the Author of sin but at the same time you say He planned it this way.

The devil entered Judas to accomplish that which God had fore-ordained by his "predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge".

At the very least God imposed a direction or tendency but 'predeterminate counsel' falls some way away from imparting a tendency, in my opinion, but is first cause.

I was there for 20 years, denying that election was election, chosen means chosen, predestined means PRE destined, omnipotent means omnipotent.

I became a Calvinist about two weeks after becoming a Christian. What do you think, was it your fault or was God keeping it from you?

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello humilis nice to meet you.

Has it occured to anyone that this is leading no where? I mean, by page 4 this thread had formed a circle.

Thanks, we are well aware of this phenomenon. We are perfecting our arguments and discovering how devoid of light the darkness is.

My Question is this, which of you are born-again?

I am.

Who is your brother (defined: generic term for fellow born again believers in Jesus Christ)?

Jesus said that we would know Him and hear His voice but He didn't say when. If a person claims to be a Christian then I view him as one.
The problem I have with the Arminian's position is that we are to trust Christ but they trust their own faith and I trust only in Christ not in my faith.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Can an Arminian ever trust in Christ? What for? It's our faith, they claim, which saves us. We are our own saviours.

Many of you are rude and condescending to each other.

We are men, we err. Patience never comes quickly. It is learnt by enduring and enduring. We will change.

It seems that debate cannot be controlled by the Spirit...

So, you are Arminian then?

...or is it something else, do we want to win each other over to full knowledge or do we want to beat each other into submission?

We want to win the argument, which we do, there is a lot riding on it, we call the sheep and build each other up.

Moreover, which of these attitudes is controlled by the Spirit?

All of them man.

I trust the Holy Spirit will teach me as I navigate this topic.

May the Lord bless you then.

john.

 

[J.D.]

Take your time, Humili. Calvi pretty well said it all for me, although in my case it took 20 years of denial before I finally saw the truth which was right in from of me all along. I know you don't understand all this yet. When I converted to Calvinism, it was a glorious and wonderful thing, to know that my God is truly omnipotent, that he has determined the end from the beginning, and that I have nothing in myself, either of faith or works, whereby I might please God, but by his Sovereign Grace! This conversion has caused me to enter into a worship and praise never before attainable. It's not been a pentacostal-type emotional work-up, like we get at an "altar call". It's been everday - the knowledge of his power and majesty constantly thrills and overwhelms me.

O.K. enough of that. Soli Deo Gloria

J.D

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello J.D. nice to meet you.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So we see that God was not the author of sin, but sin was included in God's plan. There is no "plan A", oops, better go to "plan B". It was God's plan A all along, and that's all it ever will be.

This is what confuses them man, you say God is not the Author of sin but at the same time you say He planned it this way.

The devil entered Judas to accomplish that which God had fore-ordained by his "predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge".

At the very least God imposed a direction or tendency but 'predeterminate counsel' falls some way away from imparting a tendency, in my opinion, but is first cause.

I was there for 20 years, denying that election was election, chosen means chosen, predestined means PRE destined, omnipotent means omnipotent.

I became a Calvinist about two weeks after becoming a Christian. What do you think, was it your fault or was God keeping it from you?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello, John P, man.

I know the issues I touched are confusing to those not familiar with them, but those issues have to be delt with. These issues are internal to Calvinist theology, as Arminian theology handles these issues very clumsely. It comes down to whether God was active or passive in securing, or garaunteeing, the fall. I'm definitely supralapsarian, but within the supr school there are those that follow active, and other that follow passive lapses. And many of those that belive in active lapse and reprobation believe that God, indeed, IS the author of sin. Personally, I'm still trying to make up my mind on those fine points. But the important thing for Arminians to understand, is that the fall of Adam did not necessitate a re-thinking on the part of God. The fact that God PLANNED the fall does not mean that he CAUSED it. Now many calvinists will say that God did not PLAN the fall, but foresaw it, and then planned accordingly. So be it, that's fine, but I do not follow that.

And besides all that, it's not really a matter of confusion but belief. "[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" That confuses prideful man. We must believe that God has the right to do whatever He chooses, whether we understand it or not or whether it meets our standard of "fairness".

BTW, I said in that post that the commandment CAUSED the fall. I meant to say that Adam's rebellion caused the fall, but the command, for lack of a better word, ACTIVATED the fall. I'll have to look in my theology books to get the right word there.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
The usual Calvinist all doesn't mean all weak argument. It's given here, for John 3:16, and everywhere else when the Bible clearly states that salvation is obtainable by ALL who believe on Christ.

All who? All is a generic term that is determined by context. In John 3:16 it is "all who believe". The all in John 3:16 is limited to only those who believe. Are you suggesting that because the word "all" is used in John 3:16, that even those who don't believe "have everlasting life?" Everlasting life is reserved for "all who believe." </font>[/QUOTE]No. I'm suggesting that "whosoever" in John 3:16 means that all have the opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior not just the elect.

 

[Timtoolman]

2 peter 2:1 which I haven't brought up in a while also shoots the grap out of calvinist theology.

Keep the faith Straight, toss the rest out.

 

[Watchman]

Well, you have a good point Tim: How can it be that Christ died only for the elect, when the Scripture says that the Lord "bought" these individuals, who, in this context, are obviously
lost?
I can't wait to see the Calvinist's reaction here.

Let me see.."bought" has nothing to do with providing for their salvation.
Or:
Perhaps "They are elect, but simply have not come to the knowledge of the truth yet, we were all there until God saved us."
Oh, there are many passages Tim that speaks against Calvinism, but they always have some explanation for them all.

 

[saturneptune]

I am about to hoist the white flag. Never have I been so confused as the issue of free will vs Calvinism. All of the posts seem intelligent, sincere, Timtool, tinytim, calvibap, standingfirm, edsutton, straight and narrow, they all seem in the Spirit and sincere except for craiginthesea. That one is bogus. Thanks for all the insights. It is just impossible in my mind to light on either side 100%

 

[humilis]

I have been reading up on this today. So agian be patient with me. It is a lot of information to take in. So I am trying to learn, one point at a time.

Ok, so Calvin believed;

Total depravity- As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sin. Man is unable to save himself.

and Arminius believed:

that man cannot save Himself, but that the Holy Spirit must effect the new birth in him. However, Arminians do not believe that man is totally depraved and condemned as a result of Adam's sin.

Are these correct views of what each side understands to be true?

 

[Timtoolman]

Saturneptune, going to make a confession here. I go too a calvinist church, My dad is a pastor, also calvinist. I have a 20 year old son, who is attending Bob JOnes and for a kid his age he can discuss theology with the best of them. Better then me. When we have a new person in our church I do not discuss calvinism. I don't want the one I am talking to to be confused because of me.
Just take a deep breath ask the Lord for wisedom and know that He will give it. Then continue to live your life as instructed by His word. It will not make any difference if you do that.
I hope you will not become discourage in your walk in any way.
I get carried away on here sometimes but I have many calvinist friends. When face to face we don't talk to each other like this. We pray together and we are concerned for souls together.
Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from thy law.
And 37
Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity, and revive me in THY ways.

All is vanity, except for God and His word. Nothing is more exciting then when "God reveals something to you personally" from His word. Honestly he has not shown me that I am right or that calvinist are wrong. But I still study and search and in God's own time I will get an answer.

Bottom line Saturn do not be discouraged but continue in His word.

 

[humilis]

Timtoolman,

Your words are an encouragement, thank you for your honesty. I am finding this very interesting and a challenge to grow.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by humilis:
I have been reading up on this today. So agian be patient with me. It is a lot of information to take in. So I am trying to learn, one point at a time.

Ok, so Calvin believed;

Total depravity- As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sin. Man is unable to save himself.

and Arminius believed:

that man cannot save Himself, but that the Holy Spirit must effect the new birth in him. However, Arminians do not believe that man is totally depraved and condemned as a result of Adam's sin.

Are these correct views of what each side understands to be true?

LOL, brother. I feel your pain. Really. No I think you have miss understood both sides. However for me to tell you what calvinist believe I would get lambasted. I think I know quit well what they believe but I will not answre for them.

I think that total depravity with calvinist means total inability to respond to God in salvation.

Now non agree to a certain pt. Man cannot save himself or response to God unless God interveins. I believe He has. I believe He has DONE ALL THE WORK FOR MAN TO BELIEVE. Sent His Son, HS, His word, the testemony of nature, our consience and the preaching of the gospel. Only thing man has to do is look at the truth and choose, as the bible says. Life or death or choose this day whom you will serve.

Calvinist will say that in spite of all of that man still gets the credit for salvation. It really comes down to who gets to define the terms wins the debate. I do not see depravity as total inability. Yes man is touch and corrupted in all parts of his soul, body but not unable with the work of God to respond. I believe the HS comes upon a person, like in the old testement. It is not a indwelling till the person accepts God's truth and makes Him lord of his life. Now God has given us His spirit to walk the walk of a christian. Again man gets no credit.
I am sure others will give a much better explaination.

 

[johnp.]

I'll take it Watchman.

Well, you have a good point Tim:

The 'good point' being that in Peter it is said that Christ bought certain ones who are lost, proving, according toTim, Christ died for those who can end up in Hell anyway? And this brings rejoicing from those who love love and love hate less?

How can it be that Christ died only for the elect, when the Scripture says that the Lord "bought" these individuals, who, in this context, are obviously lost?
I can't wait to see the Calvinist's reaction here.

Obviously lost but why are you so eager to prove Christ a failure and you a success, keep the faith man. "...you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." He will save them.

I thought love kept no record of wrongs? 1 Cor 13:5. I thought love never failed? 1 Cor 13:8.

2PE 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The Sovereign Lord is The Despot. He bought us, we are property. He has not said He bought redemption or salvation but He bought us. He owns us. He can dispose of us as any Despot can dispose of His property, because that is what a Despot is- a Tyrant beyond law. Where's your vaunted free will now? Slave Owning, that is what my Master is about here? Is that an infringment of your basic human rights. HaHa!

What yer think?

Oh, there are many passages Tim that speaks against Calvinism, but they always have some explanation for them all.

Cool confession man. What are you saying, Calvinists have all the answers? HaHa!

Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and Despot of Despots man. He pulls our chains until He is ready to break them and He does this for the lost sheep alone. I am now an adopted Son and heir of everything and God.
...because he will save his people from their sins."

john.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Watchman:
Well, you have a good point Tim: How can it be that Christ died only for the elect, when the Scripture says that the Lord "bought" these individuals, who, in this context, are obviously
lost?
I can't wait to see the Calvinist's reaction here.

Let me see.."bought" has nothing to do with providing for their salvation.
Or:
Perhaps "They are elect, but simply have not come to the knowledge of the truth yet, we were all there until God saved us."
Oh, there are many passages Tim that speaks against Calvinism, but they always have some explanation for them all.

Yes they do but I like to see how low we will go to defend our theology. Or how silly. I mean someone will make a stab at it and others will read it and go, yeah right! And walk away knowing what a weak attempt it was.
I am preaching to myself also. I would like to go back and eraese a few answers.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Saturneptune, going to make a confession here. I go too a calvinist church, My dad is a pastor, also calvinist. I have a 20 year old son, who is attending Bob JOnes and for a kid his age he can discuss theology with the best of them. Better then me. When we have a new person in our church I do not discuss calvinism. I don't want the one I am talking to to be confused because of me.
Just take a deep breath ask the Lord for wisedom and know that He will give it. Then continue to live your life as instructed by His word. It will not make any difference if you do that.
I hope you will not become discourage in your walk in any way.
I get carried away on here sometimes but I have many calvinist friends. When face to face we don't talk to each other like this. We pray together and we are concerned for souls together.
Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from thy law.
And 37
Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity, and revive me in THY ways.

All is vanity, except for God and His word. Nothing is more exciting then when "God reveals something to you personally" from His word. Honestly he has not shown me that I am right or that calvinist are wrong. But I still study and search and in God's own time I will get an answer.

Bottom line Saturn do not be discouraged but continue in His word.

Tim, I found this to be a really sincere post. I am always happy to read such posts on here.

Boy I sure would love to be a fly on the wall during some of your conversations with your father.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Saturneptune, going to make a confession here. I go too a calvinist church, My dad is a pastor, also calvinist. I have a 20 year old son, who is attending Bob JOnes and for a kid his age he can discuss theology with the best of them. Better then me. When we have a new person in our church I do not discuss calvinism. I don't want the one I am talking to to be confused because of me.
Just take a deep breath ask the Lord for wisedom and know that He will give it. Then continue to live your life as instructed by His word. It will not make any difference if you do that.
I hope you will not become discourage in your walk in any way.
I get carried away on here sometimes but I have many calvinist friends. When face to face we don't talk to each other like this. We pray together and we are concerned for souls together.
Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from thy law.
And 37
Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity, and revive me in THY ways.

All is vanity, except for God and His word. Nothing is more exciting then when "God reveals something to you personally" from His word. Honestly he has not shown me that I am right or that calvinist are wrong. But I still study and search and in God's own time I will get an answer.

Bottom line Saturn do not be discouraged but continue in His word.

Tim, I, too appreciate your post. It helps, sometimes to know the background of the people you are trying to tar and feather. Just kidding of course.

I have been to the campus of BJU. It is a very beautiful campus. Is your son studying to be a preacher? BJU puts out very good preachers who know their theology. I pray, whatever he is studying, he does well and lives his life to the glory of God.

I am a Baptist pastor who, in the last few years, came to terms with my developing Calvinism. My dad is a Methodist pastor (although that is recent). We have some interesting conversations, as I'm sure you and your father do.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
LOL, brother. I feel your pain. Really. No I think you have miss understood both sides. However for me to tell you what calvinist believe I would get lambasted. I think I know quit well what they believe but I will not answre for them.

OK, so knowing now that your father is a calvinist preacher, I promise not to lambast you any further. I'll save that for Me4Him!

I think that total depravity with calvinist means total inability to respond to God in salvation.

Yep. Basically, we believe the Bible teaches that the fall effected not just everyone but every part of everyone, even our wills. "Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuously. (Gen. 6)" We don't believe that every human is as bad as they could be. That, obviously is not true. But we do believe that every aspect of every human is under the curse.

Now non agree to a certain pt. Man cannot save himself or response to God unless God interveins.

This is where Arminianism departs from Pelagianism. Pelagius (back in the 400's) believed that men were born blank slates, and did not need Jesus to die or the HS to convict in order for them to live righteously enough to come to God. On this point, Calvinists and Arminians agree. BTW, I don't believe that most of the people on this board are Arminians. I believe they are somewhere in the middle.

I believe He has. I believe He has DONE ALL THE WORK FOR MAN TO BELIEVE. Sent His Son, HS, His word, the testemony of nature, our consience and the preaching of the gospel. Only thing man has to do is look at the truth and choose, as the bible says. Life or death or choose this day whom you will serve.

This is where we part ways. I believe that God has done all this, but because of the fall, man's inability keeps him from choosing correctly. See Romans 1-3 for this. God revealed Himself in creation. Everyone knows God because of that. Everyone refuses to recognize Him as God. Chapter 3 goes on to say that none seek after God.

Calvinists believe that for anyone to choose correctly, God must first give them spiritual life (regeneration) which changes their nature and, thus, their desires. Then they willingly and joyfully choose Him. He only does this for those He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Calvinist will say that in spite of all of that man still gets the credit for salvation. It really comes down to who gets to define the terms wins the debate. I do not see depravity as total inability. Yes man is touch and corrupted in all parts of his soul, body but not unable with the work of God to respond. I believe the HS comes upon a person, like in the old testement. It is not a indwelling till the person accepts God's truth and makes Him lord of his life. Now God has given us His spirit to walk the walk of a christian. Again man gets no credit.
I am sure others will give a much better explaination. [/QB]

We will usually ask the question, "What caused you to choose correctly and your neighbor to reject? Was it something in you that made it easier for you to believe?" If there is any other answer to that question than "God caused me to believe," then the credit goes to the person who chose correctly. The passage we turn to for this would be 1 Corinthians 1:18-31. Basically it says some reject the message of the cross, some believe (18-23). Those who believe are identified as "the called" (24-26). Those who are called are identified as the ones God has chosen (27-28). The reason God did it this way is so that no person could receive any glory but all glory goes to Him (29-31).

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
No. I'm suggesting that "whosoever" in John 3:16 means that all have the opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior not just the elect.

Well, here's where knowing Greek helps a little. I wish the the English versions had done a little better job. The Greek phrase is pas ho pisteuon. "Pas" means "all". ho pisteuon means "the believing ones" or "the ones who believe." Therefore, the meaning of the text is "all the believing ones." Again, it does not support either Calvinism or Arminianism, or any view in between. It merely tells what those who believe (all of them) receive - everlasting life. There is nothing in this whole passage about a universal offer of salvation. There is nothing in this passage about salvation only for the elect either. We have to turn elsewhere to get those doctrines.

Young's Literal Translation is "that everyone who is believing in him may not perish." This is accurate. "Whosoever" meaning universal offer is not found in this passage.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Watchman:
Well, you have a good point Tim: How can it be that Christ died only for the elect, when the Scripture says that the Lord "bought" these individuals, who, in this context, are obviously
lost?
I can't wait to see the Calvinist's reaction here.

Let me see.."bought" has nothing to do with providing for their salvation.
Or:
Perhaps "They are elect, but simply have not come to the knowledge of the truth yet, we were all there until God saved us."
Oh, there are many passages Tim that speaks against Calvinism, but they always have some explanation for them all.

Yes they do but I like to see how low we will go to defend our theology. Or how silly. I mean someone will make a stab at it and others will read it and go, yeah right! And walk away knowing what a weak attempt it was.
I am preaching to myself also. I would like to go back and eraese a few answers. </font>[/QUOTE]These are matters that have been debated for centuries and will be until the Lord's return. Sometimes the debate goes too far. Christ would have us to be civil, displaying brotherly love.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by humilis:
Timtoolman,

Your words are an encouragement, thank you for your honesty. I am finding this very interesting and a challenge to grow.

You'll find these "forums" to be one of the best ways to view your doctrine from different prespectives and how to respond to each, and in the process, you gain considerable knowledge, not only about your doctrine, but also the Bible as a whole.

Don't take disagreements personal, I view them as a "Challenge" to my knowledge of scripture and use it to increase that knowledge, it's a good "learning excercise".