Arminianisms

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
[QB] Predestination also denies that "WE" are "Required" to have "FAITH" before God will save, but our belief/unbelief is the reason God does/doesn't save.

One is saved by grace man. Eph 2:8.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Deny it all you like I believe the scriptures.

john.

How much of the scripture will be missed/twisted/confused when "FAITH" is "omitted"???

Nuff said.

 

[johnp.]

How much of the scripture will be missed/twisted/confused when "FAITH" is "omitted"???

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...
Through faith. A gift of God. A work of God. A work. John 6:29.

john.

 

[webdog]

Since johnp' quote function is set on "hyper calvinism", I will quote it correctly.

Eph 2:8(HCSB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--

This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God. - Wesley

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

Wesley was Arminian. That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God. That we are saved through faith denies we are saved by grace yet a gift faith is. How comes faith is a gift if it originates in us please?
Faith is a work. Faith is a work of God in us. John 6:29. If faith is a requirement then to own it is to receive the payment due for it. You saved yourself I was saved by my Saviour. You are your saviour.

john.

 

[webdog]

OK johnp, Here's from a calvinist...

Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing;

and that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance. -Barnes

 

[webdog]

John Gill...

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh_6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha.

Adam Clarke...

But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.

Peoples New Testament...

For by grace are ye saved through faith. Lest they might forget the doctrine that he ever preached, he reminds them that works of the law never saved them; that they were saved by God's grace shown in the gospel; that this salvation was obtained through the faith. The definite article is found before faith in the Greek, showing that the faith, or the gospel, is meant.

It is the gift of God. The salvation is not due to ourselves, but is God's gift. The grammatical construction of the Greek does not allow us to make "faith" the subject of the last clause. It is not "faith," but salvation through the faith, which is the gift of God. So says John Wesley in his Notes: "This refers to the previous clause, That you are saved, etc."

Not of works. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting.

Robertson's Word Pictures...

For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

Your view is not the common held view.

 

[johnp.]

OK webdog, Here's from a calvinist...


The grace I received from God was the gift of faith to please Him by. His grace to me saved me, my election, and faith, worked in me by God (John 6:29), was the outcome of His grace.
His grace to me came before faith ever did. It is by grace that we are saved... Eph 2:8, that's the way I see it. If I am way out I pray that others might show me where. The stuff you put forward I cannot make head nor tail out of.

Your view is not the common held view. And what else is new?


john.

 

[webdog]

The stuff you put forward I cannot make head nor tail out of.

maybe because "the god of this world" has blinded you. It's pretty simple reading.

 

[johnp.]

Hello webdog.

maybe because "the god of this world" has blinded you. It's pretty simple reading.

That maybe so but you do little to enlighten me.

Robertson's Word Pictures...
Peoples New Testament...
Adam Clarke...
John Gill...

Who are these people that the Devil has blinded me to?

So what you are really saying is: It is not by grace one is saved? Strange that as Paul says otherwise, Eph 2:8 It is by grace...

Is that all you can muster? OK webdog, Here's from a calvinist...

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

T'was Grace that taught...
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear...
the hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far...
and Grace will lead us home.

The Lord has promised good to me...
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be...
as long as life endures.

When we've been here ten thousand years...
bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise...
then when we've first begun.

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

OK webdog, Here's from a calvinist...

RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Praise the Lord. Deal with predestined.

john.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Here's what Jesus said. I believe Him over anybody including Calvin. Notice a pattern? Christ never used the words grace, believe, or faith. His requirement was to DO something. That something was to "Follow Me." Salvation is through deveping a close relationship with Christ by following Him. Anybody care to argue with Christ?


________________________________________
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
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Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the [son] of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
________________________________________
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
________________________________________
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
________________________________________
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
________________________________________
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
________________________________________
Jhn 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
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Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
________________________________________
Act 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
________________________________________

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
________________________________________

 

[Me4Him]

Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

"Judgment" here isn't according to the "Sovereign will" of God, but the "FREE WILL" of man to "Chose".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

"Judgment" here isn't according to the "Sovereign will" of God, but the "FREE WILL" of man to "Chose".

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.

Apparently, according to Jesus (not Calvin), coming to him is not an ability anyone has until God draws that person. No amount of "free will" is going to overcome an inability.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Here's what Jesus said. I believe Him over anybody including Calvin. Notice a pattern? Christ never used the words grace, believe, or faith. His requirement was to DO something. That something was to "Follow Me." Salvation is through deveping a close relationship with Christ by following Him. Anybody care to argue with Christ?

Better do it right, then. What if you don't follow Him perfectly? What happens then?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

"Judgment" here isn't according to the "Sovereign will" of God, but the "FREE WILL" of man to "Chose".

And another thing! None of these verses necessarily assumes ability to do anything that is said in them. Stop making the assumption that because an offer or a command is given, the ability to receive it or obey it is automatic.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by webdog:
Since johnp' quote function is set on "hyper calvinism"

So, do you think a hyper calvinist is someone who's really excited about Calvinism? Get your terms right. Most Calvinists think hypercalvinism is just as dangerous as arminianism because it is just as unbiblical.

If you want to know what hyper-calvinism is compared with biblical calvinism, here is a good article.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//articles/hypercal.htm

BTW, Charles Spurgeon, a Baptist preacher, rejected hyper-calvinism, but was a committed 5-point Calvinist

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

"Judgment" here isn't according to the "Sovereign will" of God, but the "FREE WILL" of man to "Chose".

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.

Apparently, according to Jesus (not Calvin), coming to him is not an ability anyone has until God draws that person. No amount of "free will" is going to overcome an inability. </font>[/QUOTE]Many are called, few chosen, WHY???

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

"Judgment" here isn't according to the "Sovereign will" of God, but the "FREE WILL" of man to "Chose".

And another thing! None of these verses necessarily assumes ability to do anything that is said in them. Stop making the assumption that because an offer or a command is given, the ability to receive it or obey it is automatic. </font>[/QUOTE]Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Is it my "assumptions", or are they backed up by scripture???

 

[johnp.]

Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?


john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?


john.

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

You ask a good question that I've been putting off asking, but I'm like Jesus, you answer mine question "First" because to answer will force you to admit what you deny.

"WHY would God "Repent" of anything he has done???

 

[johnp.]

No.

Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?

john.