Arminianisms

[webdog]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Since johnp' quote function is set on "hyper calvinism"

So, do you think a hyper calvinist is someone who's really excited about Calvinism? Get your terms right. Most Calvinists think hypercalvinism is just as dangerous as arminianism because it is just as unbiblical.

If you want to know what hyper-calvinism is compared with biblical calvinism, here is a good article.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//articles/hypercal.htm

BTW, Charles Spurgeon, a Baptist preacher, rejected hyper-calvinism, but was a committed 5-point Calvinist </font>[/QUOTE]I do know what "hyper" means. You haven't been on the BB long enough to know johnp. It has nothing to do with "being really excited about calvinism". Johnp believes that God is the author of every sin, every rape, murder committed. If you don't believe me, ask him. THAT'S "hyper calvinism".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
No.

Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?

john.

yes or no please?

YES

Now, answer mine, "why did God repent" of making man??

 

[Timtoolman]

How many on here are arminians?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If Christ paid for the sins of everyone ; everyone is saved . Everyone is not , and will not be saved , therefore universal salvation is a myth .

This is like saying if I pay for everyone's dinner in a restaurant, I will see to it that everyone MUST eat their dinner, or if I bought you a present, since it's paid for, you MUST accept it or I will force it on you. Two separate things. Payment and result of payment are separate things. </font>[/QUOTE]That would be really good if it made sense.

Nobody had to WANT or accept a sacrifice personally. Nobody said "I don't accept that lamb's blood for me" when animal sacrifices were in place. It was God's place to accept or reject it.

The blood sacrifice was given, accepted by God if appropriate, and those it was sacrificed for were forgiven and cleansed.

It was the same with Christ, only it was permanent.
Christ's blood was not shed in vain for those who had not, did not, and would not believe.
How could it have been? It wasn't a suspended sacrifice. There are no scriptural grounds, no reasons given to make one believe that when it is said that his blood was the purchase price, that nothing was purchased, or that everyone was bought on credit and if they didn't prove good enough, they'd be returned to their father the devil. Neither is it said that that some were bought, and the rest have to do something to make themselves worthy to be bought.

What we are told is that it's a done deal. The sacrifice was made, God accepted it, and at the end, Christ will gather together those that he purchased. </font>[/QUOTE]There was a time when Isreal was told to paint the posts of the houses with blood so that the death angel would pass over them. Now understanding the bible as we do, because we have the completed word available to us, we see that it was not the applying of the blood, although a work, that saved the first born. It was the trusting of God and His word. Same today. The blood is applied by humans, but offered by God. And it is His word that Christ the savoir who's blood will be the payment for all sin. So it does not pt to universalism, it does not mean all will be saved. You simply have to take the complete word of God to realize that it has to be accpeted. It is so clear that it is not forces that only the calvinist will read it entirely different.

Rippon do you have any thoughts of your own. It seems you just cut and paste, or qoute other people. Have you studied and can you articulate yourself what you believe. 99% of your post on this board are someone else's thoughts or words.

 

[johnp.]

I was going to give it a miss but as it has come up I think I should explain that I am not hyper-Calvinist webdog but orthodox Calvinist in so far as I know him. I obey Christ.

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.

DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

How is it that the King of Babylon knew God better than you?

I do know what "hyper" means.

Supralapsarianism has this in it, it knows peace. Did you read the article Calvi so thoughtfully provided? I don't care what you call me, after all my doctrine stinks more than any name calling will produce on me. Supralapsarianism is an accepted branch of the Church and it is where the good deposit resides in it's totality. 2 Tim 1:14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you--guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
I am so commanded. And another command is to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Jude 3.

"being really excited about calvinism" A fair desciption if you hyper the excited.

Johnp believes that God is the author of every sin, every rape, murder committed. If you don't believe me, ask him. THAT'S "hyper calvinism".

Hyper-Calvinism has more to do with what we don't do more than what God does.

Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?

Two down. Yes, God knows then God creates some for Hell? Yes or no?

Now, answer mine, "why did God repent" of making man??

I don't know but I forgive Him.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello StraightAndNarrow. posted 27 February, 2006 05:04

Christ never used the words grace, believe, or faith. His requirement was to DO something.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.


john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:

Did God know before He created a man where the man would end up Me4Him, yes or no please?

Two down. Yes, God knows then God creates some for Hell? Yes or no?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now, answer mine, "why did God repent" of making man??

I don't know but I forgive Him.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, at least you're "honest" with your answer, but don't feel bad about not being able to answer, no calvinist can.

1. Would God repent of creating man if there was nothing but "RIGHTEOUSNESS" occuring on the earth, dumb question, of course not.

2. Would God repent of creating man if there was nothing but "WICKEDNESS" occuring on earth, another dumb question, of course he would.

3. Why would God repent of creating man and the "WICKEDNESS"...IF...God "predestined" the wickedness of man and man condemnation"???

4. It's because of man's wickedness God repented of creating man, so wickedness can not be attributed to God's predestination/Sovereign will, else God would not have repented.

5. God's desire is for "ALL MEN" to do/be "RIGHTEOUSNESS", but "knowing Good/Evil", most chose the "Evil", and for those who chose "wickedness", God repented for creating.

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Calvin has it "backwards".

 

[whatever]

I guess all of that wickedness must have caught God by surprise?

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Now, answer mine, "why did God repent" of making man??

Did I really say, "I don't know?" As I write I still don't and I will tell you why I have not bothered to understand the verse.

MAL 3:6 "I the LORD do not change... And repentance is a change of heart. A change of mind. So you see I did not worry about it as no one would attack me while in obvious open conflict with the scriptures, but you did.

Tell me please what it means. Why did God repent as you say? What does that word really mean and where is it? Did He not know what was going to happen? And which scripture is wrong, MAL 3:6 or Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Is this the passage in question? Does 'grieve' mean repent?

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:

Is this the passage in question? Does 'grieve' mean repent?

john. [/QB]

I "guess" not, World doesn't mean world, All isn't ALL, repent isn't repent.

Does God mean GOD, or something else???

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:
I guess all of that wickedness must have caught God by surprise?

Not quite, All have sinned, and "ALL" was destined for hell, but the plan of salvation was designed to "Save as many as were made sinner", "ALL" in other words.

God loved the whole world, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world and died for the sins of the whole world that they "MIGHT BE" saved,...IF...they believed.

Now add to that God repenting of creating man because of so many choosing evil, rather than righteousness, and you have a clear picture of God's attitude toward "ALL SINNERS" and why he wasn't willing, nor predestined any to perish.

The "Principle" of God destroying a people where no righteousness exit is taught throughout the scripture, Sodom/Gommorrah would still exit today if any righteous men had been found in them, but God found "NOAH".

Ge 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello StraightAndNarrow. posted 27 February, 2006 05:04

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Christ never used the words grace, believe, or faith. His requirement was to DO something.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.


john. </font>[/QUOTE]________________________________________
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
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Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
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Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
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Mar 2:14 And as he passed by, he saw Levi the [son] of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
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Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
________________________________________
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
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Luk 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
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Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
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Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
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Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
________________________________________
Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
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Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
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Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
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Jhn 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
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Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
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Act 12:8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
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Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
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Take it up with my best friend.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

As I understand it this is how it works.

1. Christ did for everyone that ever will, has, or may exist.

2. If we accept forgiveness and believe in Christ we go to Heaven when we die.

3. If we dont believe and reject Christ we go to Hell when we die.

Now I could be wrong but according to the Bible I am not. What more do we need to know ????

Romans 11:33-36 (King James Version)
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Is it my "assumptions", or are they backed up by scripture??? [/QB]

Again, very nice Scriptures. Boy, you know how to quote verses that give a command to choose or an option to believe. But, one more time, the command to choose DOES NOT necessitate that ability to make the right choice.

When God says "choose Christ or spend eternity in hell," that does not automatically mean that every human being has the innate ability to choose correctly. It means that every human being has the RESPONSIBILITY to choose correctly. There is a big difference. The command to choose proves nothing except that there is a choice to be made. On that, we all agree. Where we disagree is whether or not the existence of a choice means the ability to make the right choice. So, you can stop throwing around verses that give a choice, ok?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
[QB] As I understand it this is how it works.

1. Christ did for everyone that ever will, has, or may exist.

One minor problem...Did Christ die for those who were already in hell?

Oh, yes. One other minor problem...can you show me verses that say that the death of Christ did the same thing for everyone? Not that the death of Christ didn't effect everyone in some way, but that it had the SAME effect for everyone.

You see, the problem is that the death of Christ was meant as an atonement and a propitiation for something. An atonement is a payment and a propitiation is a satisfaction. The Bible never says that Christ's death was a POSSIBLE atonement or a POSSIBLE propitiation. So, the modern synergists redefine atonement as "atonement if they will believe" and they redefine propitiation as "propitiation if they will believe."

No Calvinist denies that you must believe to be saved. But Christ's death is not limited by our unbelief. His death accomplishes what it set out to do. "He shall save His people from their sin," is what the Scripture says. It does not say, "He shall offer an atoning sacrifice that does not really atone for anyone unless they can add their own belief to his sacrifice." That would make the death of Christ lack something that only we can give. That would mean salvation is something that we complete. That would be unbiblical.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God -- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption -- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "Principle" of God destroying a people where no righteousness exit is taught throughout the scripture, Sodom/Gommorrah would still exit today if any righteous men had been found in them, but God found "NOAH".

Ge 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. [/QB]

I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. Noah had nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. Noah existed hundreds of years before Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot was in Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot was righteous. So, your illustration fails the test of truth.

And God did find righteousness in the time of Noah. He found Noah, and He still destroyed the people. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Many are called, few chosen, WHY???

Hmmm, let me think...

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God -- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption -- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

and...

Romans 9:10-12 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
How many on here are arminians?

Honestly, Tim, I don't think any of you are true arminians. You are definitely not calvinists, but you are probably not full arminians either. The five points of Calvinism were developed in response to the five points of Arminians, the fifth of which is "you can lose your salvation." Most Baptists would reject, at least, that last one.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
The blood is applied by humans, but offered by God. And it is His word that Christ the savoir who's blood will be the payment for all sin. So it does not pt to universalism, it does not mean all will be saved. You simply have to take the complete word of God to realize that it has to be accpeted. It is so clear that it is not forces that only the calvinist will read it entirely different.

A very wise person (my father-in-law) once told me that we should not try to make a biblical illustration say more than it does in context. The passover was meant to remind Israel of what God had done for them and to point to a future sacrifice. Don't make every little detail of the illustration try to fit or you can come up with some very weird beliefs. As a general rule, you should only interpret the details that the Bible interprets for you.

For instance...
Exodus 12:12-13 For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13 'Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

Since the punishment of the death of the firstborn was on all the men AND BEASTS of Egypt, and the salvation of the Israelites involved both people and livestock, then OBVIOUSLY Christ died for animals as well. If they will only believe, animals can be saved, too.

Do you see how absurd this is? But this is what happens when you try to take every little part of a story and use it to illustrate spiritual truth. Events usually have one main point. We are given a few points from the Bible about the Passover.

1) Exodus 12:14 So this day shall be to you a memorial. They were to remember what God had done.

2) 1 Corinthians 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. We are to remember what Christ has done.

Since the apostles didn't make too much more of the details that this, we probably shouldn't either.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Is it my "assumptions", or are they backed up by scripture???

BTW, Me4Him, Romans was written to believers. This verse has nothing to do with unbelievers.