Arminians and Sovereignty

[Luke2427]

According to His word It is those who believe(trust) in His Son. Men have been trying to change that truth from the day it was spoken and they just can't do it.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

John 6:43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13 ] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[Psalm 32:1,2 ]

I wouldn't be where I am today if it wasn't for many Calvinist influence, but they have not been able to take away from me what God convinced me of in my youth. That God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and He isn't lying. So listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus Christ and believe (trust) in Him. I would still be trying to work for my salvation if it wasn't for calvinist influence in my life

Don't worry if you are not the elect or not, just come to Jesus and He will not cast you out.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

You are right Psalms. The elect will come to Jesus. Coming to Jesus is proof that you are the elect. Jesus said, "All that my father giveth to me SHALL COME TO ME..."
If you can come to Christ, come! He will in no wise cast you out!

If you are hungry he is bread!
If you are thirsty, he is living water!

You might say, "I'm not hungry." Then I am not talking to you.

 

[Luke2427]

Dont' speak for them, they do not hold to the blasphemous notion God desires sin but that God uses all things including sin for His glory.

You don;t know beans about them if you think that. Just several posts up I quoted Jonathan Edwards saying JUST THAT. He is considered by religious and secular scholars alike to be the greatest religious mind in AMerican history.

You just called one of the greats a blasphemer. Now who's arrogant and rude?


Edwards said:

Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great, as we have elsewhere shown. We little consider how much the sense of good is heightened by the sense of evil, both moral and natural.

As I have said on this thread- Evil is a necessary evil.

God does not love sin- he hates it. But he decreed it so that his holiness might shine forth the brightest against sin's dark backdrop. He, while hating sin itself, desired the existence of it, so that by it he might show forth the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:7).

 

[psalms109:31]

You are right Psalms. The elect will come to Jesus. Coming to Jesus is proof that you are the elect. Jesus said, "All that my father giveth to me SHALL COME TO ME..."
If you can come to Christ, come! He will in no wise cast you out!

If you are hungry he is bread!
If you are thirsty, he is living water!

You might say, "I'm not hungry." Then I am not talking to you.

I have to see by scripture who the Father gives to His Son. If He is going to hide the truth from the wise and learned as the scripture say's and this is His good pleasure.

Since that is true these scripture shows who He will give to His Son or keep.

Zephaniah 3:
12 But I will leave within you
the meek and humble,
who trust in the name of the LORD.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Romans 930What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Since trust in the Lord is not work you can't say anyone who enters that way has earned their salvation. Following a crowd does not mean you are are drawn by the Father.The Father is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and they are the one's who are going to come and and the Father will keep them.

 

[Luke2427]

I have to see by scripture who the Father gives to His Son. If He is going to hide the truth from the wise and learned as the scripture say's and this is His good pleasure.

Since that is true these scripture shows who He will give to His Son or keep.

Zephaniah 3:
12 But I will leave within you
the meek and humble,
who trust in the name of the LORD.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Romans 930What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Since trust in the Lord is not work you can't say anyone who enters that way has earned their salvation. Following a crowd does not mean you are are drawn by the Father.The Father is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord and they are the one's who are going to come and and the Father will keep them.

Who are the meek and humble psalms?? Who are they? Are they unregenerate people?

Are there unregenerate people who seek after God?

Of course not. The meek and humble, those who seek after God are those who the Father draws. No man lost in his sins is meek and humble. None of them seek after God. God has to regenerate them before they are meek and humble and before they seek after God.

These verses teach Calvinism when in their proper perspective.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hope

All men are unregenerated until they hear the words of JEsus. His word is Spirit and life. His word is what regenerates us to believe or not to believe . When we deny the word of Christ we lose the Spirit and life and no longer regenerated. I also believe in the elect the way you do,but I also believe God has included with them those who hear the gospel of their salvation having believed

 

[Cypress]

Now you assault the idea of omnipotence. Omnipotence means "all power". Now either all power is God's power or some of it is not. If some of it is not then God is not omnipotent.

The power to blink your eyes is God's power. If you have the power to blink your own eyes apart from the power of God then God is not omnipotent.

This is why thinking Arminians sometimes become open theists. It is where Arminianism logically leads.

Got news for you Luke. It's where truth leads both views.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

This debate is akin to asking, "is Jesus a man or is He God?" the answer is yes. I accept the omnipotence of God and my freedom to exercise the choice to accept or reject Him. He created us with a will & with the ability chose Life or death. If God chooses who will be with Him according to His will, then all of humanity will be in Heaven. He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance", but not all will come to repentance; therefore, all who are in hell will be there against His will. "For God so LOVED the WORLD (kosmos)..." I do not have to understand the coexistence of His sovereignty & my free will in order to accept it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

All men are unregenerated until they hear the words of JEsus. His word is Spirit and life. His word is what regenerates us to believe or not to believe . When we deny the word of Christ we lose the Spirit and life and no longer regenerated.

100% wrong.

This is post-modern gibberish and cannot be tolerated. Salvation is the work of God in the heart of His elect. ONLY they are so gifted and regenerated to be capable of repentance and faith. And not one of them will be lost.

The onus is NOT on His Word that regenerates (and if we deny it later we lose that regeneration - how evil a teaching is that??) but His holy Spirit that regenerates, saves and keeps.

If any part of that was up to man, we'd be talking "works salvation".

I have a dear friend who gave proof with word and deed over decades of the saving grace of Jesus. He now has had his mind affected (he's in a locked ward so cannot get out) and in a nursing home. He does not pray, read the bible, sing a hymn. Can cuss like he did in early life in the military, and does not know who Jesus even is.

He hasn't "lost" something that God did for him. He's lost the cognizance of it in an Alzheimer brain. But salvation does NOT depend on me do or believing or saying or anything. It depends on God regenerating the heart and keeping him for heaven.

 

[psalms109:31]

100% wrong.

This is post-modern gibberish and cannot be tolerated. Salvation is the work of God in the heart of His elect. ONLY they are so gifted and regenerated to be capable of repentance and faith. And not one of them will be lost.

The onus is NOT on His Word that regenerates (and if we deny it later we lose that regeneration - how evil a teaching is that??) but His holy Spirit that regenerates, saves and keeps.

If any part of that was up to man, we'd be talking "works salvation".

I have a dear friend who gave proof with word and deed over decades of the saving grace of Jesus. He now has had his mind affected (he's in a locked ward so cannot get out) and in a nursing home. He does not pray, read the bible, sing a hymn. Can cuss like he did in early life in the military, and does not know who Jesus even is.

He hasn't "lost" something that God did for him. He's lost the cognizance of it in an Alzheimer brain. But salvation does NOT depend on me do or believing or saying or anything. It depends on God regenerating the heart and keeping him for heaven.

1 John 2:
Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

How can we go back to the person we once was knowing what Christ done for us. His word changes us. If we can walk away we were never His in the First place. The truth hurts, but the world needs to hear it.
This is what called God me to do and i will do it, because it is His word not mine

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

I will not put in anything i say encouraging men it's OK not to believe, because it isn't God's will for anyone who is His.

 

[psalms109:31]

I have a dear friend who gave proof with word and deed over decades of the saving grace of Jesus. He now has had his mind affected (he's in a locked ward so cannot get out) and in a nursing home. He does not pray, read the bible, sing a hymn. Can cuss like he did in early life in the military, and does not know who Jesus even is.

He hasn't "lost" something that God did for him. He's lost the cognizance of it in an Alzheimer brain. But salvation does NOT depend on me do or believing or saying or anything. It depends on God regenerating the heart and keeping him for heaven.

Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

~ Reinhold Niebuhr

 

[Luke2427]

Got news for you Luke. It's where truth leads both views.

I don't know what this means.

 

[Luke2427]

All men are unregenerated until they hear the words of JEsus. His word is Spirit and life. His word is what regenerates us to believe or not to believe...

Exactly. Now you are starting to make a good Calvinist. Just think your statement above through to its logical end and you will develope a consistent theology.

 

[Luke2427]

Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

~ Reinhold Niebuhr

What argument are you making here?

 

[Luke2427]

Dont' speak for them, they do not hold to the blasphemous notion God desires sin but that God uses all things including sin for His glory.

You think God desiring for sin to exist makes God a sinner. That is not so. Sin is necessary that God might be praised to the fullest degree possible.

God decreed sin, even Theissen the non-calvinistic theologian, said this.

God decreed sin so that:

1. He might be praised to the fullest degree possible.

2. We, the Redeemed, might attain unto the highest possible happiness.

Can you imagine a heaven where, throughout the endless ages of eternity, Jesus Christ is never praised once for grace? Never one song is sung to him for his love displayed in the shedding of his own blood? Yet this would be the eternal state of heaven had sin never existed.

He would not get the fullest glory without the existence of sin nor would we experience the fullest degree of happiness without sin.

Praise God for his decree that sin should exist!

 

[quantumfaith]

Why is it obvious? Make a case. What if we all just said, "obviously" instead of forming arguments? This would be a pretty pointless site wouldn't it.

I don't think it is obvious; in fact, I think it is obvious that God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will and that of him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Luke, then with your "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how he operates, means that a young 12 year old girl kidnapped in Cambodia and sold into sexual slavery in Somalia to be there until men grow tired of her and discard her like a piece of trash is part of the "designed and specific" plan of God for her and all of creation?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, then with your "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how he operates, means that a young 12 year old girl kidnapped in Cambodia and sold into sexual slavery in Somalia to be there until men grow tired of her and discard her like a piece of trash is part of the "designed and specific" plan of God for her and all of creation?

What is the alternative, QF? That it had no purpose? That her life and all of her suffering was just a tragic, cosmic waste? Hadn't you rather believe that things happen for a reason. That many times the reasons are reserved exclusively for the secret counsels of God, but that he has a purpose and plan and will and end for all things, for all events- especially those tragic ones?

 

[quantumfaith]

What is the alternative, QF? That it had no purpose? That her life and all of her suffering was just a tragic, cosmic waste? Hadn't you rather believe that things happen for a reason. That many times the reasons are reserved exclusively for the secret counsels of God, but that he has a purpose and plan and will and end for all things, for all events- especially those tragic ones?

Sorry Luke, my "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how He operates does not include such, but rather, He can use the evil hearts, intentions and actions of man, to reveal to mankind the power of His love, hesed and forgiveness for those who through their "brokenness", pain and hurt care to look for the God of creation.

I will "freely" admit, because of the simple fact that I am finite and fallible, that I could be completely wrong, but nothing in the revelation of God, scripture or creation points me to a God who does what I seem to think you say about him.

 

[Luke2427]

Sorry Luke, my "perception/interpretation" of who God is and how He operates does not include such, but rather, He can use the evil hearts, intentions and actions of man, to reveal to mankind the power of His love, hesed and forgiveness for those who through their "brokenness", pain and hurt care to look for the God of creation.

I will "freely" admit, because of the simple fact that I am finite and fallible, that I could be completely wrong, but nothing in the revelation of God, scripture or creation points me to a God who does what I seem to think you say about him.

But Scripture DOES say God works this way. It says so emphatically.

God worketh ALL things after the council of his own will.

Read Genesis 50:20 Joseph said, "You thought evil against me but God meant it unto good..."
They thought evil.. but God MEANT it. It was in the eternal councils of God that they would do what they did to Joseph. God always meant for them to commit these sins. God used it all for good.

The alternative is that things happen out of God's control. That God has to come in afte they happen and work them out. Nobody wants to live in that kind of world.

 

[quantumfaith]

But Scripture DOES say God works this way. It says so emphatically.

God worketh ALL things after the council of his own will.

Read Genesis 50:20 Joseph said, "You thought evil against me but God meant it unto good..."
They thought evil.. but God MEANT it. It was in the eternal councils of God that they would do what they did to Joseph. God always meant for them to commit these sins. God used it all for good.

The alternative is that things happen out of God's control. That God has to come in afte they happen and work them out. Nobody wants to live in that kind of world.

Not exactly, that is what you SAY (interpret).

 

[Luke2427]

Not exactly, that is what you SAY (interpret).

No brother. that is what the text says.

They did it for evil but God MEANT IT for good.

This is the way of all wicked men and all their deeds. They do them for evil but god means those deeds for some good and glorious purpose.

What a consolation to the victims of terrible deeds. What happened to you was not some random act but God purposed it for a great a glorious purpose.

And is not the suffering of man a small price to pay for the glory of God?