Arminians are pro-choice

Some calvinists underestimate the power of step 1 -- while others combind 1 and 3 into one big lump.

But step one - stands asis.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Man is enabled to respond--and some do"

Are we saying in effect that the ones who do not respond are "rejecting salvation"? Perhaps they are not among those "predestined and elected".

How does this account for the multitudes which have never heard the gospel at all? They never had an opportunity to accept or reject.

A proper understanding of the Sovereignty of God and the Grace of God will answer these questions.

Is God not able and entitled to save whom He will?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

If any of salvation is not of God then salvation cannot be "all of God". Those who do respond - is their response of God, or of themselves? </font>[/QUOTE]IT IS "of God" that MAN is DRAWN and ENABLED to choose.

 

God did ALL, 100% of the work of man's salvation, Jesus completed it and is now sitting at the right hand of the Father awaiting the Father's timing for the next events to be initiated.

God has finished the work of man's redemption! It is now up to man to come to faith through the use of the tools that God gave to man for that purpose. Those tools are the gathering of information, Hearing the message, reasoning it through, and forming faith in it or not believing it at all. That is man's part...Use your God given brain and establish faith in God, like you do for money, cars, armies, marriage, jobs, etc.!

God demands that we come to faith in Him, abandoning all other gods! And it has been that way since Adam! Yet, we insist on establishing other gods. If we can put our FAITH in other gods for whom "God gave us no faith", then we too can establish FAITH in the one true God in exactly the same manner that we have faith in other gods. We gain knowledge of God, His Son, their promises to us, and we establish faith in them from within our own person, in the same manner that we gained faith in the "other gods" that we all have in our lives. This is not rocket science folks.

 

Then we agree - Salvation is ALL "OF God"!

Finally!

Nope - because if God "ENABLES Choice" but then "chooses FOR you AS though His enabling was pointless" then it would be "pointless".

Obviously.

The choice HE chooses to ENABLE is THE DIFFERENCE between the one that avails of God's Work of salvation and the one that does not.

The Billion dollars was all EARNED by the Billionare - but the one who RECEIVES it vs the one who DOES NOT -- is determined by the choice of the individual

Yet their "Choice" does NOT make them a producer of a billion dollars worth of economic assets. They produced "nothing". They only gained what SOMEONE ELSE produced.

Calvinism lacks the concept of "gift" - it is forever stuck on the idea of "toy".

In Christ,

Bob

 

There you have it. </font>[/QUOTE]Your comment could be taken several different ways, could you provide us with specifics?

 

If God established it so, why not?

God did all the work and Jesus declared, "it is finished". Did he mean it? Did he mean that with his death all mankind are saved? or that ONLY the elect are saved already?

No, He meant that All of God's work for man's salvation is finished. Everything is in place for salvation to be possible for mankind. The banquet is ready, it is now up to the invited guests to show up. As the Wedding feast for the bridegroom illustrates, the bridegroom's father had invited all of his friends, who had "reasons" they could not attend. So the Father of the bridegroom, sent his servants to invite "the whosoevers" to come, and all who came dressed in the proper clean apparel were seated for the banquet. Those "invited" guests missed the party. Those who came in inappropriate apparel were cast out, banished from the feast.

You will note in this illustration, the Father did not "pre-condition" those who actually did come! He simply extended to them the invitation, and those who came did so of their own free will in Garments cleaned through confession and repentance!

So yes, God did all the work, but we, though His invitation must come of our own free will, willingly giving up our sins so that our garments could be spotless.

Oh the joy of hearing the Father praise his Son in the hearing of all who believe in the son. What Joy he must have in Jesus.

 

*sigh*

1) Salvation - the concept, the possibility, and the actuality all originate from God.

Without God's work there exists no possibility to be saved no matter what mankind does

2) God enables ALL men to choose through the work of the Holy Spirit.

God has literally walked up to every single person every single day and shoved mercy down their sorry throats by not killing them right now! He then further goes on by putting salvation which He created and is beyond any mortal's power to gain in normal circumstances - and says "Here I want you to have this" Israel ran from the voice/presence of God at the mountain - you think the rest of mankind would not run from this most awesome gift of salvation? Funny part is God chases us - He keeps forcing us to have to choose until we accept him or die. Us going "Fine" in no way gives us any credit.

A man trapped in a well grabs a rope and is pulled out by someone - did that man save himself by grabbing that rope? Or was it the man who offered him the rope and pulled him out?

A child falls into spring flooded river - and screams for help - someone rescues him. Is it to the childs credit or glory that he screamed? No the whole world saw him in the river - some people even tried to save him and others by themselves.

But it is ultimately God who saves despite our grabbing ahold of Him. For God could most assuredly shake us off and not save us - despite our pleadings/screaming/grabbing/ - none of that matters - none of that accomplishes salvation - and in fact I will admit that there are times where God will simply grab someone and drag their sorry butts into salvation - because He has a SPECIAL purpose for them - they are the elect.

But this is just my whacked out view

 

I like your stated view Sularis! Especially that part of grabbing some and making them his Elect!

He does not however include all that he saves in that "list of the elect" In truth the ratio of elect vs Saved is quite wide in that few are the elect compared to the number of the saved!

 

Rocket science:

The ones who have never heard the gospel are neither acceptees or rejectees; what happens to them? Why?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

How do you know that such exists?

Dr. Sherwood Lingenfelder wrote extensively about "primative man" in the 20th century. He lived among them for many years to research their beliefs. He observed that they too believe in a "supreme, for lack of a better word, "God in the"heavens"". They have never heard the name Jesus, but believe in the "spirit of God" dwelling among them, watching over them, and their works and their crops. They don't know salvation by the terms we use, but believe that if God is pleased with them they live again after they die. That sounds an awful lot like faith to me.

 

"God in the 'heavens'"--

This is not about "G"--GAOTU, primitive or "civilized".

This is about "What think ye of Christ--who is He?"

Not every human past and present has heard the gospel. There is no other named in heaven or earth whereby we must be saved--JESUS.

There are millions who have heard and have followed a false gospel--will everything be all right in the end? I don"t think so!!!

It is really quite simple--there are children of God, and there are children of the devil. The Lord knows them that are His--He is calling them out daily.

Only Jesus saves forever--from forever--He is the Lamb of God, slain from before the foundation of the world--when the names were PERMANENTLY put in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

You limit the Godhead to Jesus?

Abraham did not know the name Jesus, but I'll bet my life that Abraham is saved! None of the believers in God of the Old Testament knew the name Jesus, but Again I'll bet my life that they are all saved!

Jesus is the name given to a human conceived by God in the womb of a human female. There is no other human so conceived, thus no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. However, Faith in God is Faith in the Son, is faith in the Holy Spirit. Faith in God is the requirement humans must meet in order to be saved by God!

 

Dear Brother James,
I am confused by your post. Could you explain further?

a debtor to free Grace,
Bro. Dallas

 

Further Explanation:

Sorry to confuse--many times I throw things on the discussion floor without sufficient explanation.

I was making several points:

1. There are souls out there who have not heard the real gospel; and they have died in their sins. What happens to them?

2. The idea that even the most primitive people believe in deity and they are therefore somehow justified before God without the shed blood of Jesus Christ is blatantly false.

3. The faith that God gives is not the faith that someone can call up at will and exercise to accept or reject Jesus. "For by GRACE are you saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast." Keep reading--"We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10.

If you have some specific point which you wish to discuss, please quote the idiom that I used, so I may better answer the question.

Selah,

Bro. James