arminians are they saved?

I love your humor! 8oD !

Ken Hamilton --

I agree with your post toward the bottom of page 1.

Rev G --

Love your answer! No truer words . . .

- - - - - - - - - -

This question bothers me almost as much as
those asking if African Americans can be saved.
I know too many fine Arminian believers to even
imagine such a thing as that they aren't really
believers.

[ November 11, 2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

Time after time the Calvinist assertion is raised that Arminians are rejecting total depravity - instead of INSISTING on total depravity AND also on the John 12:32 DRAWING of ALL mankind as the solution.

No matter how exhaustively the response is made - that same old start-over assertion is made from the Calvinist POV so that they have to be re-reminded of the John 12:32 solution - a solution that EVEN Calvinism accepts.

But do the Arminians ask that the Clavinist repetition of the total depravity claim - be "deleted from the boards by the monitors"?.

And yet in response to the scenario given about Calvinism's future - a scenario that has recieved either Calvinist SUPPORT for the tenants OR silence - or a rewrite of MAtt 7 - we have only the "complaint" that the scenario exposes Calvinism in a bad light.

Your argument is that the Arminian view itself is not agreeable to you. That is hardly a direct response to the scenario that APPLIES the prinicples of 5-point Calvinism.

However - the scripture clearly states "All who call upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved".

IF you choose to call that "the will of man saving yourself" then you are reworking the text without warrant.

As it is Arminians simply "accept" that God IS Drawing "ALL MANKIND" and IS "NOT willing for any to perish" AND "IS the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for those of the whole world" AND we insist that Christ IS correct "FEW find the way of salvation" Matt 7 - but still - Few DO find it.

It is all supported by the infallible Word of God - the Gospel message as He describes it in His word AND as even the Calvinist Evangelists are forced to proclaim it - in Arminian terms.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That phrase that "He is a Calvinist but he preaches like an Arminian," is a poor one. Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitefield, Nettleton, etc., they were all "Calvinist" evangelists who preached like "Calvinists." They did not use "Arminian" terms. They used biblical ones - "Christ died for sinners," "God calls you to repent," "Believe on Christ," etc., etc.

Rev. G

 

There are doctrines and wordage that all Christians agree on. We should rejoice in our solidarity in those areas.

Ken

 

All who have accepted Christ as personal saviour are saved saved, be they calvinist, arminian, or somewhere in the middle.

 

As I said - Arminian terms.

But here are some good 5-point Calvinist ones.


"Christ died for some of you. Some of you will discover that you are already born-again and already IN Christ - if you happen to be one of the arbitrarily select few of Matt 7. And nothing I say - and nothing you may "will" - can change that today. God knows it as fact and that settles it period.

Your choice - your will plays absolutely no part in that at all. IF you are one of the many of Matt 7 - then you are out - period. If God select you - well then you were one of the FEW He DID select. How nice for you.

But as for your precious darling child, or other loved one... they must be selected in that same arbitrary fashion - to be among that group of the FEW. IT is ALL in the arbitrary selection - not in anything you do today. How wonderfully gracious!".

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 12, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

arminians are they saved?

I've been resisting too long. I can't stand it anymore. I just don't have enough self-control...

are they saved?

only accidently....



(now, if anyone starts taking that seriously and getting their dander up, please replace your dander, take two aspirin, and don't PM me in the morning...)

 

Yes, this is supported by 1 Groan 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and ours only."

Again, you've got this correct, as is shown in Exaggerations 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world by throwing darts at our names in the book of life."

Still right on target, as can be seen in Fatalism 28:19 "Therefore don't bother to make disciples of anyone, since nothing you say will make a difference, anyway."

Unfortunately, you get into a little trouble on the nothing you may "will" part, because it clearly says in Roamings 9:15 that "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever chooses of his free will to receive it, and I will have compassion on whomever chooses of her free will to receive it.' So then it up to him who chooses and wills, not of God who shows mercy."

Again, this isn't supported by scripture. See Exaggerations 2:8 "For it is by free will you have been saved, through choice--and this is from yourselves, not the gift of God--it is counted as works, so that anyone can boast."

 

Hanko's statement from prca site:

Of course, you know what this is getting at. What is promoted here as the "true" Calvinism in opposition to the "hyper" position that is supposedly "based on the same human logic as Arminianism", by not accepting the "tension" between God's love for all and His "sovereignty". As I say, who is right?

And Harald adds:

The whole concept of "choosing" and "believing" may be overrated. People forget that Jesus said all one has to do is cry "God be merciful to me a sinner!"(Luke 18:13) and be justified. This is certainly not doing anything to contribute to our salvation, "working up" faith or "in the flesh desiring Christ" or "choosing to pick up one's cross and follow Him", etc. It assumes an elemental form of "faith" or "believing", but this is in no way something "worked up". (Christ then gives the "experimental faith" that is needed!) . Plus, in Mark 9:24, a man asks "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief", showing that God does give people "faith", and this is a "work" of His, but this does not mean that the person could not have asked for it first. The various straw man clichés Calvinists pose ("This is 50% God, 50% man", "God's part/your part", etc) may be technically accurate, but the Bible does not speak technically; this is what the Bible defines as what saves, so Biblically, it is NOT "our work". (John 6:29)

In my own experience, it was obvious that God was the one doing all the work. I, in the resistant state before, did not just one day wake up and say "Oh, I must now will myself to believe in order to be saved". I felt like that at times, but then came to learn to rest in God's finished work. Sometimes I wish I could have gotten saved earlier, but it would have been impossible. In the mindset I was in, I could not simply change my mind. God was drawing, but I still had a way to go before finally being led to Him. I did not go down to any altar, at the prompting of some evangelist. I did not fill out a tract or card that said I was now saved if I did this. (All the type of evangelical stuff Calvinists criticize). I just came to believe after years of God gradually drawing. At no point did I say "OK, so now I am believing, so now I am saved." In fact I always feared something was wrong because I didn't express my conversion as a definite event, like so many others did. I learned that it is not about an event of my doing, because anyone can do that and still not even be saved. I never felt "God did His part, now it's time for me to do mine", or that I "closed some deal" with God. Never did I "boast" of anything. I have probably not done 1% of anything, let alone the "50%" I keep seeing thrown around. Even today I struggle with many internal problems, but then I remember that salvation is all of God, and none of my striving (including trying to "believe" when I feel doubt)(Romans 4:5). It is God who has given me the ability to believe and obey. Despite all of my shortcomings, there has been a great change in my life, not of my own doing. So I testify that my conversion was all of God, but the difference between me and some is that I do not assume that because it was God who led me like that, then everyone who was not so led is "passed over" or "reprobated". (Yet, I'm told if I don't believe this, then I'm "boasting" of "saving myself" by the "work" of "conjuring up faith from my old nature". But that does not match what I experienced.)

So it is time that all this speculation of Arminians "boasting of themselves" and therefore possibly not being saved comes to an end.

[ November 13, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Hanko, from the site also says:

Once again, this makes it a game and a script where God just writes people into Hell as by their own fault, while it was He who purposely denied and "hardened" them (What if these reprobates asked "what shall we now do?"). Once again, this confuses whether they are condemned for their "total depravity" or because God "hardened" them. People here are denying this, but then since there are many other Calvinists who do affirm it, this is why we keep addressing it.

[ November 13, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Eric,

The Protestant Reformed Church is hypercalvinistic, and as such it is no place to find out what mainstream calvinistic doctrines are.

 

1) Amen.

2) Amen.

3) Amen, and amen.

God is sovereign, gracious, and good!

Ken

 

I think a bit of clarification is in order. The will plays no part in the sense that it is not the deciding factor in our salvation, it is not the cause of our salvation. We use our will to believe, to exercise faith. But we are unable to do this prior to the work of the Spirit whereby He liberates us through awakening. The will is not the deciding factor (Jn. 1, Rom. 9, etc.), the grace of God is.

Rev. G

 

Sovereign? Amen!

Gracious? Amen!

Good? Amen!

 

Amen, and amen.

Ken

 

#1 I appreciate all those that approved with strong support my Calvinist expression of "evangelism" when done "consistently" with the doctrines of Cavlinism.

#2. I also appreciate your pointing out that not one of those strong pro-Calvinist statements were quoted by our Calvinist bretheren seeking to show Calvinist evangelist forms of "evangelism".

It only proves further - that they use ARMINIAN terms in evangelism - not the Calvinist terms I quoted - terms that were so strongly endorsed here.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 15, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Bob,

I would prefer to call them Christian terms, but if you prefer to call them Arminian terms, I still agree with them.

As the saying goes - "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."

Ken

 

Here is Charles Spurgeon's answer to the original question about Arminians in Heaven:

There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one “of whom the world was not worthy.” I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Savior, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of heaven.

Thomas Nelson, Inc., Heritage of great evangelical teaching: Featuring the best of Martin Luther, John Wesley, Dwight L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon and others [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1996.