Arminians That I Admire

[Lux et veritas]

But by that same token, I don't know of any Calvinist who does not pray like an Arminian either because they don't desire God to pass over their children or family. So they beg God to save them, to 'give them a second chance' and so on and so forth. The fact is we all pray like men who believe in God and that God is the only one to whom we can come to intervene as He sees fit, but is also a God who is moved by our cries/pleas.

If I may respectfully disagree with you on your example of prayer as being 'Arminian'. Actually, this prayer is perfectly compatible with Calvinism, because it is recognizing that God is the only one who can accomplish the work we are asking to be done.

Oh, and BTW, another Arminian writer that I admire is HAI. I have his entire set of commentaries in my library.

 

[saturneptune]

If I may respectfully disagree with you on your example of prayer as being 'Arminian'. Actually, this prayer is perfectly compatible with Calvinism, because it is recognizing that God is the only one who can accomplish the work we are asking to be done.

Oh, and BTW, another Arminian writer that I admire is HAI. I have his entire set of commentaries in my library.

When you are praying for anything outside the salvation process, such as thankfulness, praising God, praying for a healing or getting someone through a bad situation, etc, Arminians recognize that God is the only one who can accomplish the work. He is sure the only One that can forgive sins, accept praise or hear a thank you.

 

[Rippon]

G. Campbell Morgan, like many turn of the last century preachers, were not Arminian.

I beg to differ Jim. Iain Murray, who wrote the definitive bio of Dr. M-L-Jones identified him as an Arminian. Dr. L-Jones acknowledged the same -- his theology was very different from G.G.Morgan.

Many British preachers from that era (1800's-1940's)were Arminian. Men such as Joseph Parker, F.B. Meyer and Alexander MacLaren were of that theological persuasion.

 

[Rippon]

Now, the prayer above, which I agree with...

You agree with that fictional prayer that C.H.S. devised (because of its nonsensical nature)?! You as a professing Calvinist agree with it? Not a single Arminian would ever say such a thing that you have admitted.

 

[saturneptune]

You agree with that fictional prayer that C.H.S. devised (because of its nonsensical nature)?! You as a professing Calvinist agree with it? Not a single Arminian would ever say such a thing that you have admitted.

... I agree with the sarcasm of the prayer. I agree that this fictional prayer illustrates the doctrines of grace and sovereignty very well. ...

 

[Rippon]

Listen closely, I agree with the sarcasm of the prayer. I agree that this fictional prayer illustrates the doctrines of grace and sovereignty very well.

I got you. But you had said ;"The prayer above, which I agree with." It would have made more sense to have said that you agreed with the point C.H. S. was making rather than saying you agreed with the prayer.

But I'm glad you disagree with the prayer after all is said and done.

 

[Rippon]

Two more Arminians I will add to the list are Darrell Bock and Ravi Zacharias.

 

[tonyhipps]

Although Arminianism has had American evangelicalism in a stranglehold since his days, I would have to say Charles Finney.

 

[Pipedude]

Although Arminianism has had American evangelicalism in a stranglehold since his days, I would have to say Charles Finney.

Arminius would have choked on Finney, who was certifiably Pelagian.

 

[Jim1999]

There are some Calvinists who would label a preacher Arminian if he doesn't hold to the five points, in total, in the argument against Arminianism.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[tonyhipps]

Arminius would have choked on Finney, who was certifiably Pelagian.

Though Arminianism is more properly speaking a variety of semi-Pelagianism, the "semi" is a thin petina. The essence of Pelagianism is retained in semi-Pelagianism, and it is carried through into Arminianism and, to a degree, into Dispensationalism.

 

[Pipedude]

Though Arminianism is more properly speaking a variety of semi-Pelagianism

Trying to associate Arminianism with Pelagianism is just playing Fantasy Theology online.

 

[tonyhipps]

I'd rather play fantasy football.

 

[Jim1999]

The 5 points of Arminianism:

1) Partial Depravity – humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God on our own. We are capable of choosing to accept salvation or reject it without any influence from God. (2) Conditional Election – God chose who would be saved based on knowing beforehand who would believe. God chooses those whom He knows will believe. (3) Unlimited Atonement – Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus’ death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him. (4) Resistible Grace – God’s call on a person’s life to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God’s pull towards salvation if we choose to. (5) Conditional Salvation – Christians can lose their salvation if they continue in a life of sin and/or fall away from God. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it.

We tend to label anyone an Arminian who doesn't agree totally with the 5 points of Calvinism, which would include a lot of turn of the last century Baptists.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pipedude]

We are capable of choosing to accept salvation or reject it without any influence from God.

That's Pelagianism, and contrary to Arminianism.

 

[Rippon]

That's Pelagianism, and contrary to Arminianism.

I agree Pipedude.

Jim, you think Arminianism teaches that someone can choose to accept salvation without any influence from God?!

 

[Allan]

I agree Pipedude.

Jim, you think Arminianism teaches that someone can choose to accept salvation without any influence from God?!

IF you will notice he was speaking to the 5 points of Arminians and giving a brief description of what it is supposed to be saying.

I have no idea where he got it from because the understanding of the 1st point is completely incorrect. Historical and/or Reformed hold to 'Total Depravity', specifically that no man can come to, know anything of, nor even believe without a special and specific opperation of God in him.

 

[Jim1999]

have no idea where he got it from because the understanding of the 1st point is completely incorrect. Historical and/or Reformed hold to 'Total Depravity'
==========================

I don't recall quoting any Reformed Doctrines, and especially listing the 5 points of Calvinism. I listed the quote from the original debate by Arminius which resulted in the five points of Calvinism, which was written in response to original Arminianism in Holland.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism has been greatly distorted over the last two centuries and especially out of Dallas, along with their dispensationalism.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

There is an interesting history about Calvinism and Arminianism, John Calvin's followers and Jacobus Arminius followers, the Remonstrants. Neither Calvin nor Arminius had anything to do with the drafting of the five points. If you do some search, I am sure there must be sites on te net covering this history. They just might be an eye opener.

Jacob Arminius and Calvin were not that far off in their beliefs, except on the point of soteriology where one attributes salvation strictly to God, not based on foreknowledge, but by His own choosing, and the other allowed man to make a choice, by faith, based on God's foreknowledge.

It boiled down more to the decrees than the five points, and the order of the decrees.

In plain English, It ain't that simple, folks, this Calvinism and Arminianism debate.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[JDale]

The 5 points of Arminianism:

1) Partial Depravity – humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God on our own. We are capable of choosing to accept salvation or reject it without any influence from God. (2) Conditional Election – God chose who would be saved based on knowing beforehand who would believe. God chooses those whom He knows will believe. (3) Unlimited Atonement – Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus’ death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him. (4) Resistible Grace – God’s call on a person’s life to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God’s pull towards salvation if we choose to. (5) Conditional Salvation – Christians can lose their salvation if they continue in a life of sin and/or fall away from God. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it.

We tend to label anyone an Arminian who doesn't agree totally with the 5 points of Calvinism, which would include a lot of turn of the last century Baptists.

Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim:

I know your above summary has been portrayed by many in the Calvinist community of a long time as "Arminianism," but simply put, it is not. At least, not on 2 or 3 of the points you mention. Below I have posted "The Remonstrance," constructed in 1618 by those who had studied under Jacobus Arminius. He died in 1609, of course, but those who supported his views, facing imminent condemnation at the Synod of Dort, tried to clarify their views. Of course, the "synod" was fixed, composed of only of Calvinists. But reading through the ACTUAL views of the "Remonstrants" is enlightening. These are the "five points" of [Reformation] Arminianism:

The Remonstrant Articles​

Article 1

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else­where in many places.

Article 5

That those who are in­corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume3, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI: 1996.Ppages 545ff.

I have underlined relevant passages to demontrate that Arminians believe in TOTAL Depravity, NOT "partial" depravity (as do Semi-Pelagians). Additionally, Article 1 does declare that Arminians affirm Conditional Election, and Article 2 affirms a GENERAL (as opposed to either "unlimited" OR "universal") Atonement. Also clear in Article 4 is the Arminian affirmation of Prevenient Grace (sometimes called "enabling grace"), which is wholly the operation of God The Holy Spirit, as opposed to the Calvinist concept of "irresistible grace" aka "effectual calling." Prevenient Grace may be resisted. Finally, Article 5 demonstrates that the Remonstrants had differences among themselves regarding "final perseverance." Some believed that the truly saved would persevere, others considered that there might be the possibility of Apostasy. In no case was Salvation thought to have been maintained by "works," but by "continuing in the faith."

Thanks to those on this thread for indulging me in putting this before you. I know we may disagree on certain points, but please know that Arminians are NOT the same as Pelagians OR Semi-Pelagians. Jim, I thank you for your courtesy, and I thank Rippon for starting this thread. It's refreshing to see [most] of this!

JDale