Arminians, what about the Iraqi's?

Well, Bro. Bill I am not going to try to get in the mind of God but God dispenses His grace where He chooses to send His Word. Interesting it may be more Christians in China now than here in the states. I personaly think the Chinese Churches will be the most important churches in the 21st century.

That is debatable. I have a friend in Nigeria and the Spirit of the Lord is working in a mighty way there. There is a massive growth of Christianity in Nigeria, Sudan.

It has nothing to do with either Calvinism or Arminianism.

 

Primitive Baptist,

I read your post dated March 18--11:49 p.m.

Sometimes we get the idea that you brethren think that we never have read verses like Proverbs 21:1. 'The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water, He turneth it whithersoever He will.' This kind of sovereignty we welcome, but not your hybrid view that this proves that God can damn, at will, whomsoever He wills. There is no hint of God picking and choosing His elect sheep. While God installs through human means {voting} or whatever, those who He desires to place in office, He nevertheless, within His sovereign plan has ordained that human beings must make their faith/belief response to His atonement or turn from the blood of the New Covenant. Receiving Jesus or not welcoming Him is the criterion on which salvation rests, and is not based on His autocratic choice of never dying souls.

 

Kiffin,

I read your post dated March 19th at 11:29 a.m.

You said something to the effect that 'God dispenses His grace where He chooses to send His Word.' The better way at looking at this is to say that He can only give grace to those who hear or see the Word of truth. [Mark 16:16] It is our responsibility to get the Word out to a lost world.

Also, God does not dispense His grace, and I say it respectfully in His Presence, like an owner would dispense Italian Ice. Your view, however, does not say go to the end of the line, but in the case of the non-elect He says, don't even get in the line.

Wherever the Word is presented the Holy Spirit attends His witness. There is no partiality with God; all sinners are on an equal level. [Acts 10:34] 'Of a truth . . . . God is no respecter of persons.' He welcomes the prayer of faith. [Titus 2:11 & Rev. 22:17]

You offer a proper view of Calvinistic belief but fall far short of Biblical theology.

 

Ray you stated,

You are correct that It is our responsibility to get the Word out to a lost world. That is how God gets the Gospel to a lost world. His Grace and His Word work hand in hand. He gives His grace not because of any merit of a person but out of His mere mercy.

God's unmerited favor is given to those whom he brings to salvation. In that sense every believer has experianced the Grace of God. The great revivals in China, Vietnam, Nigeria are examples of God pouring out His Spirit by His grace.

I agree with most of what you say. The problem is that if you take away unconditional election you make God a respecter of persons of only those who have enough free will to believe while Reformed theology teaches that none of us are able to believe without the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the sinner willing, removing the self will of the rebel.

It has been my experience, that it seems the Non Calvinists who are trying to get into the mind of God ( and I say that respectfuly) and try to reconcile truths that need no reconciling. The great Calvinist theologian R. B. Kuiper once used the following illustration of God’s sovereignty and human responsibility. ” I liken them to two ropes going through two holes in the ceiling and over a pulley above. If I wish to support myself by them, I must cling to them both. If I cling only to one and not the other, I go down.” I read the many teachings of the Bible regarding God’s election, predestination, his chosen, and so on.

I read also the many teachings regarding ‘whosoever will may come’ and urging people to exercise their responsibility as human beings. These seeming contradictions cannot be reconciled by the puny human mind. With childlike faith, I cling to both ropes, fully confident that in eternity I will see that both strands of truth are, after all, of one piece.”

The fact is Unconditional Election and Whosoever Will are both great truths. Calvinists accept both truths. Non Calvinists accept only Whosoever Will while failing to acknowledge the Sovereignty of God in Evangelism.

 

I think the two real truths are that God is in control and the author of salvation, but man must choose Christ to be saved.
It was the Calvinists, who tried to harmonize this by saying: "Well, if God is in control, then he must determine who is saved. All who are lost, it is because He has "passed them over" "reprobated" them, etc). Now, we don't want Him to be responsible for sin and damnation, so we will shift the "tension" to "God is sovereign, man is responsible". We can do this by interpreting Rom.5 to say that "all sinned in Adam" (i.e. as if personally, individually), so they're "guilty" (apart from any sins they may commit), even though they didn't actually consciously choose this. So if God passes over many, it is just. If any object that this is unfair, well, Rom.9 mentions something about people "replying back to God" and that there are "vessels of wrath", people "hated" before they were born and had done any good or evil. Let's just take this to prove this idea, and see, we've got it all figured out! This is how 'God's decrees "play out in time"'"
Nobody before Augustine read all of this into Scripture.
So it's the Calvinists who have been trying to "get into the mind of God" by speculating on His decrees and how they play out in time. But we live in time, God has revealed His truths to us from a timelike perspective (those who believe will be saved), so that is the way we should be teaching it.

 

You are correct sir!

 

Kiffin,

Arminian theology does acknowledge the sovereignty of God in that He has ordained that those who believe {free will} are those who will finally be saved in eternity. It is always an amazing thing to me that He has saved people like you and me. This speaks to His sovereign will in the lives of all sinners. {the sovereignty of God} Ephesians 2:8 speaks of His sovereign grace conferred on and ministered to all who have faith in Jesus.

 

Kiffin,

You said, 'The problem is that if you take away unconditional election you make God a respecter of persons of only those who have enough free will to believe . . . '

Let me correct you by saying that Biblical/Arminian theology does not believe that God gives different amounts of 'free will' to sinners. We all have a free will and it is not hampered by God in any way, ever. I cannot say this strongly enough. It is only Calvinists who suggest that God hardens the non-elect and favors His up and coming elect ones. We never have bought in on the partiality of Almighty God. [Acts 10:34] I prefer the KJV but the New Internation Version says, 'Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accept men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.'

 

Sin, is what affects man's will, not God's willingness or unwillingness to choose them. Rich men, according to Christ, have a difficult time entering the kingdom. Why? If they are effectually called, it should be as easy as anyone else who is effecually called. Rich people's wills are distracted by money, which is why scriptures teaches that you can't serve both God and money. Lust of the flesh can be another sin that hinders man's will as seen in Romans 1. But notice they are not born hardened in those sins they become hardened after rebelling and living in sin for a time--until God "gives them over."

So, its not men's lack of free will that affects their capasity to believe its the degree of their hardeness, which is why God points to little children as the model that we must become like in order to enter the kingdom. Why, if Children are born hardened in sin, would Jesus use them as an example of what we must become like? Because children have yet to become hardened in their sin. Why do you think most people who receive Christ do so before the age of 18? (BTW, I still believe children have a sin nature and are born in need of a savior so don't go quoting all the verses that have to do with being a sinner from birth, they say nothing about being hardening or totally depaved from birth)

Plus, people in scripture are not rebuked by Christ for their lack of free will. He rebukes them for their lack of faith. Now if Calvinism is correct, then Christ shouldn't be rebuking men for their lack of faith, he should rebuke God for not giving them enough faith. That is unacceptable, as is Calvinism's dogma.

 

Brother Bill,

There is a lot of truth in the below statement that you offered. So many people are affected by the hardening effect of their sins. You said, 'Sin, is what affects man's will, not God's willingness or unwillingness to choose them.'

You had some other good points too; I don't have the statements close at hand. God does not harden sinners they do it all by themselves. Their shopping list of sins gradually hardens them into total non-compliance to His requirements of a faith/trust in Him.