Arminians

[Allan]

Sorry about that. I just see in many of your posts that you lean towards classical Arminianism, but I don't think I've seen you discuss eternal security, which if you believe in that, then you couldn't technically be called Arminian in your theology. Also, I respect (your) classical Arminian position much more than semi-Pelagianism, which sometimes creeps into the non-cal argumentation on this board.

Peace.

I guess it just depends on how you want to read things. In the "Other Christian Demoninations" which I used to frequent often (though not so much anymore)I have frequently been called a Calvinist quiet a few times and even once a hyper - THAT was funny.

As I stated I don't not hold to the theological constructs of Arminianism (Classical or otherwise) I can no more be called an Arminian for holding to 2 at most 2 and a half points than Jerry Falwell of Liberty U. (our deceased brother in Christ) could be lumped into Calvinism because he held to 2 of the points (Total Depravit, and Perservence of the Saints).
I do not believe (like Classical Arminiamism) that a person can not lose their salvation but that they CAN forfeit it. I beleive that at salvation we are so changed (a new creation in Christ) that we would never desire to leave behind that which was made so precious to us from the first but that it grows and that we are kept by His power. (1 Peter 1)

I believe in the Total Depravity of Man, and the Perservence of the Saints. I also believe God elected a people from the people from the beginning to be saved and that the death of Christ Does in fact secure specifically those who will believe with slight modification regarding some parts. So you can say I'm a 2 and half point Calvinist and a 2 and half point Arminian. Classical Arminianism only held 1 point of Calvinism and that was Total Depravity.

So I request to not 'specifically' lump me in with the Arminians just as you would not call me a Calvinist. I don't mind so much saying I might 'lean' toward a view but please don't state thing like this:

I respect (your) classical Arminian position

So you should respect my view even more since I hold 1 to 1 and a half more Calvinistic points than they do. :laugh:

 

[drfuss]

The ungodly nickname "Armenian" gets thrown around alot on this board. I have not yet seen one. So I thought this thread would give them an opportunity to come out of the closet.:laugh:

Anyone? Anyone?

drfuss: Is the ungodly nickname "Arminian" related to the ungodly nickname "Calvinist"?

Must some always be bad mouthing what others believe? We don't have to believe what other Christians believe, but shouldn't we show some respect for other Christians?

 

[JustChristian]

I guess it just depends on how you want to read things. In the "Other Christian Demoninations" which I used to frequent often (though not so much anymore)I have frequently been called a Calvinist quiet a few times and even once a hyper - THAT was funny.

As I stated I don't not hold to the theological constructs of Arminianism (Classical or otherwise) I can no more be called an Arminian for holding to 2 at most 2 and a half points than Jerry Falwell of Liberty U. (our deceased brother in Christ) could be lumped into Calvinism because he held to 2 of the points (Total Depravit, and Perservence of the Saints).
I do not believe (like Classical Arminiamism) that a person can not lose their salvation but that they CAN forfeit it. I beleive that at salvation we are so changed (a new creation in Christ) that we would never desire to leave behind that which was made so precious to us from the first but that it grows and that we are kept by His power. (1 Peter 1)

I believe in the Total Depravity of Man, and the Perservence of the Saints. I also believe God elected a people from the people from the beginning to be saved and that the death of Christ Does in fact secure specifically those who will believe with slight modification regarding some parts. So you can say I'm a 2 and half point Calvinist and a 2 and half point Arminian. Classical Arminianism only held 1 point of Calvinism and that was Total Depravity.

So I request to not 'specifically' lump me in with the Arminians just as you would not call me a Calvinist. I don't mind so much saying I might 'lean' toward a view but please don't state thing like this:

So you should respect my view even more since I hold 1 to 1 and a half more Calvinistic points than they do. :laugh:

What's the difference between losing your salvation and forfeiting it?

 

[webdog]

What's the difference between losing your salvation and forfeiting it?

Losing something is done unintentionally...forfeiting is done intentionally.

 

[JustChristian]

I guess it just depends on how you want to read things. In the "Other Christian Demoninations" which I used to frequent often (though not so much anymore)I have frequently been called a Calvinist quiet a few times and even once a hyper - THAT was funny.

As I stated I don't not hold to the theological constructs of Arminianism (Classical or otherwise) I can no more be called an Arminian for holding to 2 at most 2 and a half points than Jerry Falwell of Liberty U. (our deceased brother in Christ) could be lumped into Calvinism because he held to 2 of the points (Total Depravit, and Perservence of the Saints).
I do not believe (like Classical Arminiamism) that a person can not lose their salvation but that they CAN forfeit it. I beleive that at salvation we are so changed (a new creation in Christ) that we would never desire to leave behind that which was made so precious to us from the first but that it grows and that we are kept by His power. (1 Peter 1)

I believe in the Total Depravity of Man, and the Perservence of the Saints. I also believe God elected a people from the people from the beginning to be saved and that the death of Christ Does in fact secure specifically those who will believe with slight modification regarding some parts. So you can say I'm a 2 and half point Calvinist and a 2 and half point Arminian. Classical Arminianism only held 1 point of Calvinism and that was Total Depravity.

So I request to not 'specifically' lump me in with the Arminians just as you would not call me a Calvinist. I don't mind so much saying I might 'lean' toward a view but please don't state thing like this:

So you should respect my view even more since I hold 1 to 1 and a half more Calvinistic points than they do. :laugh:

What's the difference between losing your salvation and forfeiting it? How is a belief in forfeiting your salvation consistent with a belief in Perseverance of the Saints?

 

[Allan]

What's the difference between losing your salvation and forfeiting it? How is a belief in forfeiting your salvation consistent with a belief in Perseverance of the Saints?

Who said it was??

I staded "I do not believe (like Clssical Arminianism)..."

 

[drfuss]

Perhaps we should list some of the misconceptions that OSAS Christians have about Non-OSAS Christians.

1. Christians that don't believe in OSAS don't really know that they are saved. FALSE

2. All Christians that don't believe in OSAS believe they can lose their salvation. FALSE

3. All Christains that don't believe in OSAS believe they can be saved over and over again. FALSE

4. Christians that don't believe in OSAS are not as sure of their salvation as OSAS believers. FALSE

 

[David Lamb]

Perhaps we should list some of the misconceptions that OSAS Christians have about Non-OSAS Christians.

1. Christians that don't believe in OSAS don't really know that they are saved. FALSE

2. All Christians that don't believe in OSAS believe they can lose their salvation. FALSE

3. All Christains that don't believe in OSAS believe they can be saved over and over again. FALSE

4. Christians that don't believe in OSAS are not as sure of their salvation as OSAS believers. FALSE

I'm not wishing to be contentious in any way, just wondering how your "FALSEs" can be true. This is particularly so with your points 2 and 4. How can a person believe that they can never lose their salvation, yet at the same time not believe that once they are saved, they will remain saved? How can someone who does not believe that once Jesus Christ has saved them, they will remain saved be as sure of their salvation as some one who does believe (as the hymn writer puts it) "Once in Him, in Him forever"? The only explanation that occurs to me is that perhaps the term "OSAS" means something more than I imagined it did - believing that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[drfuss]

I'm not wishing to be contentious in any way, just wondering how your "FALSEs" can be true. This is particularly so with your points 2 and 4. How can a person believe that they can never lose their salvation, yet at the same time not believe that once they are saved, they will remain saved? How can someone who does not believe that once Jesus Christ has saved them, they will remain saved be as sure of their salvation as some one who does believe (as the hymn writer puts it) "Once in Him, in Him forever"? The only explanation that occurs to me is that perhaps the term "OSAS" means something more than I imagined it did - believing that salvation cannot be lost.

drfuss: Many misconceptions are floating around among OSAS Christians.
Concerning number 2:

2. All Christians that don't believe in OSAS believe they can lose their salvation. FALSE

I think WebDog addressed this in a previous post here, but I will address it in more detail.

Reformed Arminians (and others) believe they can forfeit their salvation, but not lose it. They believe this can be done by deciding to stop trusting in Christ, i.e. the gift of salvation is forfeited.

Wesleyan Arminians believe they can lose their salvation as well as forfeit it. They believe salvation can be lost by not repenting of known sins and not being remorseful for them. An example of this would be a believing Christian refusing to forgive someone after a long period of time has passed since the offense.

4. Christians that don't believe in OSAS are not as sure of their salvation as OSAS believers. FALSE

OSAS Christians believe if they are True Christians, they will continue to trust Christ and are eternaly secure. However, if they stop trusting Christ, they were not True Christians in the first place. Therefore there can be some uncertainty about if they are True Christians. I know OSAS Christians at my church that are concerned about this.

Non-OSAS Christians know that they are True Christians now because they are trusting Christ now. Based on this belief, there is no uncertainty about being a True Christian now. Of course, there can be an uncertainty about continuing to trust Christ in the future.

IMO, the two uncertainies are about equal.

From a practical sense, much of the differences are a play on words.

 

[Amy.G]

I have never understood this notion of "stopping believing in Christ". Once you know the truth and are convinced that it really is truth, how do you stop believing that it's true??

I learned about gravity and it's effect and I have never stopped believing in it.

 

[drfuss]

I have never understood this notion of "stopping believing in Christ". Once you know the truth and are convinced that it really is truth, how do you stop believing that it's true??

I learned about gravity and it's effect and I have never stopped believing in it.

drfuss: I don't want get into yet another OSAS debate, but I will answer your question because I know that OSAS Christains tend to live only in an OSAS world and don't understand how others believe.

There are many scriptures that warn against stopping believing in Christ. Of course, OSAS Christian's longstanding, standard interpretations of those scriptures are that those people weren't really True Christains (or Believers) in the first place. An example is how the OSAS Christians handle the parable of the sower where the growing seed (word of God) dies due to being choked out by thorns.

Consider this, in order to be a member of a Southern Baptist Church, one must be a believer and be baptized. Yet, only about 30% of SBC members attend church. Are the missing members still believers? Explanations given here on BB were that they weren't true Christians. Apparently they thought they were True Christians, but weren't?

 

[Amy.G]

drfuss: I don't want get into yet another OSAS debate, but I will answer your question because I know that OSAS Christains tend to live only in an OSAS world and don't understand how others believe.

There are many scriptures that warn against stopping believing in Christ. Of course, OSAS Christian's longstanding, standard interpretations of those scriptures are that those people weren't really True Christains (or Believers) in the first place. An example is how the OSAS Christians handle the parable of the sower where the growing seed (word of God) dies due to being choked out by thorns.

Consider this, in order to be a member of a Southern Baptist Church, one must be a believer and be baptized. Yet, only about 30% of SBC members attend church. Are the missing members still believers? Explanations given here on BB were that they weren't true Christians. Apparently they thought they were True Christians, but weren't?

I don't want to debate OSAS either. I've just heard this before about people who stop believing. I can't understand it. Once you've found something to BE true, how do you suddenly believe it ISN'T true? Makes no sense.

As far as why people stop attending church, I would just have to speculate. It wouldn't neccessarily mean they stopped believing in Christ.

A person who believes in Christ, believes and trusts in Him as Savior and believes that He is God.

For that same person to stop believing, he would have to reject the truth he has been enlightened with and start believing that Jesus isn't God and isn't their Savior. What would make them do that? Like I say, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[JustChristian]

I don't want to debate OSAS either. I've just heard this before about people who stop believing. I can't understand it. Once you've found something to BE true, how do you suddenly believe it ISN'T true? Makes no sense.

As far as why people stop attending church, I would just have to speculate. It wouldn't neccessarily mean they stopped believing in Christ.

A person who believes in Christ, believes and trusts in Him as Savior and believes that He is God.

For that same person to stop believing, he would have to reject the truth he has been enlightened with and start believing that Jesus isn't God and isn't their Savior. What would make them do that? Like I say, it just doesn't make sense.

Rejecting a truth they accepted in their mind 20 years ago is really quite easy if they haven't made Christ the Lord of their life. Walking down the aisle and shaking the preacher's hand is easily forgotten if not applied to one's everyday life. Being born again is all-important to a real salvation experience. Jesus said "Ye must be born again." That means living the Christian life because Christ is Lord of your life. If someone has been doing that all along it is difficult to forsake because their Christian beliefs have become an integral part of who they are and how they live their life.

 

[webdog]

I don't want to debate OSAS either. I've just heard this before about people who stop believing. I can't understand it. Once you've found something to BE true, how do you suddenly believe it ISN'T true? Makes no sense.

As far as why people stop attending church, I would just have to speculate. It wouldn't neccessarily mean they stopped believing in Christ.

A person who believes in Christ, believes and trusts in Him as Savior and believes that He is God.

For that same person to stop believing, he would have to reject the truth he has been enlightened with and start believing that Jesus isn't God and isn't their Savior. What would make them do that? Like I say, it just doesn't make sense.

To add to this, Scripture tells that when we are faithless, He remains faithful.

 

[Andy T.]

Allan, we are closer together than I realized. Cool.