saturneptune
New Member
Convicted, thank you for the kind words.
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As a former pentecostal, was I even saved?
- Thread starter Squidward
- Start date
I think most Christians would acknowledge that Sunday School is failing miserably almost across the board to teach any kind of Bible doctrine to kids.
Kids ought to know what the chief end of man is.
Kids ought to know what the commandments are and what each one teaches.
They ought to know the Lord's prayer and what it teaches.
They ought to know what Providence is.
But if catechism is done properly, the kid will not just be able to recite from rote memory the answers, but he will be taught the concepts along the way and know what what he is saying means.
Maybe your church was not teaching you properly.
But if it is done properly, I don't see how the average Sunday School class could even compare to it.
I am challenging my teachers to begin to catechize and teach our children what these things mean.
saturneptune, when it comes to your comment about the "saw" I couldn't help but chuckle. :laugh:
When someone plays the saw it absolutely drives me up a wall for some reason. It puts me in mind of eerie back-ground music in a horror movie. :thumbs:
What's always been interesting to me regarding the "gift" and the Pentecostals is that said "gift" is second from the bottom of the list. I don't consider that extremely exciting.
When someone plays the saw it absolutely drives me up a wall for some reason. It puts me in mind of eerie back-ground music in a horror movie. :thumbs:
What's always been interesting to me regarding the "gift" and the Pentecostals is that said "gift" is second from the bottom of the list. I don't consider that extremely exciting.
I think I understand what both of you are saying. The best way I know how to describe is to compare to my own life, since I returned to the church.
How do I keep things from becoming a ritual, a going through the motions? That's a battle within myself that I'm fighting. To pray the Lord's Prayer for the 100th time with the same conviction as the 4th or 5th time. Not to become complacent. To strive for more.
If a child simply recites words learned, as if reciting "Trees" by Joyce Kilmore, that's "going through the motions". Way back when I was a kid in Sunday school, we had to recite a Bible verse each Sunday morning that we were supposed to have learned during the week. A verse of our choice. Thinking back, far too many times I heard "Jesus wept.". Simply because the class teacher did not ask us to explain the verse. It was enough just to voice the words of one.
On the other hand, if the teacher had routinely involved us in working through the meaning of the words we spoke, how much greater our understanding would have been. How much greater the foundation on which to base our faith. Thinking back, would I have drifted away from the church if that had happened?
IMHO, Sunday school from the day the child is old enough to attend is where children should be educated about their faith. That's in addition to what they should be taught at home. Sadly, often that's not the case in either place.
From what I've seen of "modern" Sunday school, too much emphasis is on cookies & drink boxes, craft's projects and such. And not enough age appropriate emphasis on the scriptures themselves. Back when I was a kid I never saw all the "stuff" that's in classrooms today. We sat with our quarterly and the teach taught from it. Not necessarily that we learned as much as we should (depending on the individual teacher) but that we didn't take a big chuck out of the hour for coloring with crayons and refreshments.
In summary: On one hand, it shouldn't be a ritual. On the other hand children should have a true understanding to their ability to learn.
Hope that makes sense.
How do I keep things from becoming a ritual, a going through the motions? That's a battle within myself that I'm fighting. To pray the Lord's Prayer for the 100th time with the same conviction as the 4th or 5th time. Not to become complacent. To strive for more.
If a child simply recites words learned, as if reciting "Trees" by Joyce Kilmore, that's "going through the motions". Way back when I was a kid in Sunday school, we had to recite a Bible verse each Sunday morning that we were supposed to have learned during the week. A verse of our choice. Thinking back, far too many times I heard "Jesus wept.". Simply because the class teacher did not ask us to explain the verse. It was enough just to voice the words of one.
On the other hand, if the teacher had routinely involved us in working through the meaning of the words we spoke, how much greater our understanding would have been. How much greater the foundation on which to base our faith. Thinking back, would I have drifted away from the church if that had happened?
IMHO, Sunday school from the day the child is old enough to attend is where children should be educated about their faith. That's in addition to what they should be taught at home. Sadly, often that's not the case in either place.
From what I've seen of "modern" Sunday school, too much emphasis is on cookies & drink boxes, craft's projects and such. And not enough age appropriate emphasis on the scriptures themselves. Back when I was a kid I never saw all the "stuff" that's in classrooms today. We sat with our quarterly and the teach taught from it. Not necessarily that we learned as much as we should (depending on the individual teacher) but that we didn't take a big chuck out of the hour for coloring with crayons and refreshments.
In summary: On one hand, it shouldn't be a ritual. On the other hand children should have a true understanding to their ability to learn.
Hope that makes sense.
freeatlast
New Member
Let me start by saying that I would not worry about it. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not ours and today is all that matters in things like this. The bile tells us how to know if we are saved. I suggest that you read first John as it gives us understanding on how to know.
Also you might want to click on these links;
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/TrueChristianityJohnMacArthhur.wma
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Did you come to Jesus in your heart and call and cry out to him to save you from your sins? That is when you were saved, no matter where you were.
No new Christian knows theology perfect, that takes a lifetime of learning. If our theology had to be perfect to be saved, then no one would be saved.
But you do have to believe you are a sinner, and that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose again, and that if you come to Jesus in your heart and trust or believe on him you will be saved.
We learn more later.
Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Notice the order shown here. First we hear God's word and repent, and turn in trust to Christ. Then we receive the Spirit, and then by the Spirit we are taught to understand God's word.
Welcome to BB!
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Did you come to Jesus in your heart and call and cry out to him to save you from your sins? That is when you were saved, no matter where you were.
No new Christian knows theology perfect, that takes a lifetime of learning. If our theology had to be perfect to be saved, then no one would be saved.
But you do have to believe you are a sinner, and that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose again, and that if you come to Jesus in your heart and trust or believe on him you will be saved.
We learn more later.
Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Notice the order shown here. First we hear God's word and repent, and turn in trust to Christ. Then we receive the Spirit, and then by the Spirit we are taught to understand God's word.
Welcome to BB!
saturneptune
New Member
That says more about a local church's Sunday School program than it does for the merits of communicants class. I believe I said in my original post I was not blaming any church or denomination.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hey everyone, thank you for your thoughts. Sorry I didn't hang with the discussion as I had to go to work last night.
Anyway, I have always felt I was saved by my confession of faith in 1993, but wondered if some of my "off" beliefs after salvation kind of gummed things up for me. I read the Bible all of my life but, as I said earlier, only recently read it in a way that picks apart every verse and think about what each means.
When I went to pentecostal churches there was little emphasis on personal study. The church I was in as a youth did. Our pastor was a big believer in studying the Bible, but many of the other churches cared little if their members knew anything about the Bible. All they really wanted were cheerleaders that showed up faithfully every Sunday and cheering the preacher with "amens, hallelujah, glory, etc" and applause.
Anyway, I have always felt I was saved by my confession of faith in 1993, but wondered if some of my "off" beliefs after salvation kind of gummed things up for me. I read the Bible all of my life but, as I said earlier, only recently read it in a way that picks apart every verse and think about what each means.
When I went to pentecostal churches there was little emphasis on personal study. The church I was in as a youth did. Our pastor was a big believer in studying the Bible, but many of the other churches cared little if their members knew anything about the Bible. All they really wanted were cheerleaders that showed up faithfully every Sunday and cheering the preacher with "amens, hallelujah, glory, etc" and applause.
I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else picked up on this already.
Some may disagree, but I feel very uncomfortable to hear people think along the lines of anything they did having saved them. While it may have simply been in error in the wording, it reflects a mindset that isn't quite in line.
Faith and repentance allow you to approach salvation, but do not save you. Salvation is by God alone through the sacrifice of Christ.
Believe in God, believe Jesus was who He said He was, and if you truly do, repentance follows.
I struggled with TRUE belief for a long time. I WANTED to believe and tried, prayed for it, but really didn't and quite honestly? Don't think I was personally capable. It wasn't until I fell on my knees in despair and cried out "HELP ME" that I was surrounded by the peace, safety, and knowledge of salvation.
I didn't have the typical experience I hear of in Baptist churches. It really didn't feel like much to do with me. While my heart and desires changed, it wasn't some magical experience where I suddenly dropped anything and everything wrong in my life. It was a slower but sweeter change, and I felt like Christ walked with me, understood me, and that not like I was being spiritually assaulted for being human. It took me time to grow out of the old and into the new, though I will say that my heart completely desired the new.
It's never wrong to re-examine what you believe and why, to question just where your faith lies. Faith in what you did won't last and is easily shaken. Faith in what God did for us through Christ only grows stronger over the years.
It's the most important thing for one's eternal life, the body is temporary, so don't let anyone give you any assurances if you are actually doubtful. Just the fact that there's any doubt concerning salvation screams that your priority is to re-examine this issue NOW. It's not something you want to misunderstand or not know. Nobody else can tell you, only guide you, so nobody else can assure you either. That's between you and the Holy Spirit. If anyone claims they can assure you of your personal standing, run like the wind! No human being on this earth today has that power.
From the OP"
"I even believed in the "oneness" doctrine." This tells me you got involved in a Oneness Pentecostal Church. The other Pentecostal denominations (and the SBC) consider the One Pentecostal Church a cult. I can understand why you attempted to speak in tongues on your own since they put tremendeous pressure on their people to speak in tongues; I have been told that they even say speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation and they are very vocal about it on the radio, etc. No other large Pentecostal denomination believes this.
If you accepted Christ as your Savior and Lord while at the Oneness Pentecostal Church, you were saved. Be thankfkul that God lead you out of that denomination.
"I even believed in the "oneness" doctrine." This tells me you got involved in a Oneness Pentecostal Church. The other Pentecostal denominations (and the SBC) consider the One Pentecostal Church a cult. I can understand why you attempted to speak in tongues on your own since they put tremendeous pressure on their people to speak in tongues; I have been told that they even say speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation and they are very vocal about it on the radio, etc. No other large Pentecostal denomination believes this.
If you accepted Christ as your Savior and Lord while at the Oneness Pentecostal Church, you were saved. Be thankfkul that God lead you out of that denomination.
Thanks again guys. I was actually saved in an independent pentecostal church that had very close parallels to the Assembly of God. There were some speaking in tonges there but it was mostly a very solid church and the pastor had a passion for teaching his sermons and really didn't want a bunch of shouting and clapping.
The last church I was in from 2004 until 2007 was a breakaway from the UPC pentecostals. This pastor took issue with the UPC's legalism of outward appearance. He basically told the regional council that he had a serious problem with the church members all looking like they were dressed for prom but many had ongoing sin issues such as alcoholism and affairs. His problem was the inward sin took a back seat to outward appearance so they told him to hit the road. There were no dress codes in his church as many people wore jeans to that church. The only hangup they hung onto was the "oneness" doctrine. Something I started to believe until I really dug into the Bible and realized it just didn't jive with me. This is when we discovered my current church that has very sound teaching and has helped me to retrain myself in the way I look at the Word of God.
Seriously, the whole "God's gonna give you your breakthrough" sermons every week got very old. Everyone sat around waiting for their breakthrough and did very little to make an impact in their own communities.
The last church I was in from 2004 until 2007 was a breakaway from the UPC pentecostals. This pastor took issue with the UPC's legalism of outward appearance. He basically told the regional council that he had a serious problem with the church members all looking like they were dressed for prom but many had ongoing sin issues such as alcoholism and affairs. His problem was the inward sin took a back seat to outward appearance so they told him to hit the road. There were no dress codes in his church as many people wore jeans to that church. The only hangup they hung onto was the "oneness" doctrine. Something I started to believe until I really dug into the Bible and realized it just didn't jive with me. This is when we discovered my current church that has very sound teaching and has helped me to retrain myself in the way I look at the Word of God.
Seriously, the whole "God's gonna give you your breakthrough" sermons every week got very old. Everyone sat around waiting for their breakthrough and did very little to make an impact in their own communities.
beameup
Member
You were saved, it's just that you were never led down the clear path laid out by the Apostle Paul of Walking in the Spirit.
Had you been discipled - immediately upon conversion - of the need to Walk in the Spirit then you would
have no need for a "breakthrough" of some sort, as you would have had the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit 24/7 365.
Obviously, no one in that church even had a clue as to how to Walk in the Spirit (be led by the Spirit).
seekingthetruth
New Member
Now the ignoramus has spoken....See your good for something....apparently a counterbalance! :laugh:
seekingthetruth
New Member
seekingthetruth
New Member
BTW, Einstien, "your" means you own something. "You're" means "you are".
Which one did you mean here? If you call someone an ignoramus, you should make sure you don't look stupid with your grammer.
John
I have hair to my waist AND earrings...four piercings.
I didn't know it was wrong. :laugh:
seekingthetruth
New Member
WE are ALL saved same way here on the BB, but the Grace of God ALONE, by received Chrsit by faith ALONE...
We tend to discuss.argue over just what that really means, but IF you had placed faith in Christ and trusted in Him to save you, than you were and are saved by him!
I was in an Assemblies of God church for over 10 years, even became an Elder/board member there, and though many in there were saved JUST same way that i was, their 'distinctive" doctrines of second act of grace, being "baptised in holy Ghost" as evidenced by Tongues, was NOT in the Bible, and so left to pursue other churches,and ended up baptist!
DeChaser writes:
I was in an Assemblies of God church for over 10 years, even became an Elder/board member there, and though many in there were saved JUST same way that i was, their 'distinctive" doctrines of second act of grace, being "baptised in holy Ghost" as evidenced by Tongues, was NOT in the Bible, and so left to pursue other churches,and ended up baptist! Yesterday 05:59 PM
"I was in an Assemblies of God church for over 10 years, even became an Elder/board member there, and though many in there were saved JUST same way that i was, their 'distinctive" doctrines of second act of grace, being "baptised in holy Ghost" as evidenced by Tongues, was NOT in the Bible, and so left to pursue other churches,and ended up baptist!"
The AOG does not believe in the "Second Work of Grace". The Pentecostal Holiness Denomination is the only large pentecostal denomination that believes in the second work of grace. AOG - Tongues (yes), Second Work of Grace (no).
I was in an Assemblies of God church for over 10 years, even became an Elder/board member there, and though many in there were saved JUST same way that i was, their 'distinctive" doctrines of second act of grace, being "baptised in holy Ghost" as evidenced by Tongues, was NOT in the Bible, and so left to pursue other churches,and ended up baptist! Yesterday 05:59 PM
"I was in an Assemblies of God church for over 10 years, even became an Elder/board member there, and though many in there were saved JUST same way that i was, their 'distinctive" doctrines of second act of grace, being "baptised in holy Ghost" as evidenced by Tongues, was NOT in the Bible, and so left to pursue other churches,and ended up baptist!"
The AOG does not believe in the "Second Work of Grace". The Pentecostal Holiness Denomination is the only large pentecostal denomination that believes in the second work of grace. AOG - Tongues (yes), Second Work of Grace (no).