As an Arminian, why did you believe?

[Van]

Peace brothers. 5 point Classical Arminian Baptist here.

I've been thinking on the root of belief for a few days and would like to hear your opinions.

How would a free will believer (aka non-Calvinist) explain why they have believed? They chose to believe and submit to God, but why? Why they said yes to the Spirit while others say no?

Is it due to previous personal experiences that make their heart more or less harden, and them more or less prideful? But in this case, one could argue that being born in a certain environment/family, would pre-dispose you to accept or reject the Lord. If God appointed you to be born in a certain circumstance, and that circumstance influences your decision, isn't God kinda forcing/suggesting you on your decision?

Now, against this environment argument is the angel's rebellion. Why 1/3 rebelled while 2/3 didn't, if they all had the same circumstances and all lived in Heaven in the Lord's presence?

I fail to understand the deciding factor and how would that be a sole, fully independent free will decision.

Outstanding opening post asking thoughtful questions.

I am a non-Calvinist, I believe in once saved, always saved, and that Christ died for all humanity, providing the means of salvation for all humanity.

Yes, I believe how we are raised influences how open we are to God's word. An obvious example, if you parents believed in Christ and raised you to believe in Christ, chances are you would start out inclined to believe in Christ.

On the other hand, say you were raised to believe in Islam, you would not be inclined to say that is a lot of hooey, and Christ is the way.

The NT tells us of people who were looking for the Messiah, and chose to believe Jesus was the Messiah. Thus they were open to God's word, and had not been taught to reject Christ.

All of us are pre-disposed to go our own way and not submit to the dictates of others, until we realize our way leads to pain, suffering and death. But we are still vulnerable to being taught Christ's way wrongly such that believe we are saved when we are not. See Matthew Chapter 7 for example.

The lost seem to be in a little more vulnerable state than the angels, as because of the Fall, the lost were made sinners, and are corrupted such that they are pre-disposed to sin.

I do not think the bible teaches our choice to trust in Christ is fully independent of our experience.

I do not think the bible teaches God predestined our every experience in life, as the bible says things happen by chance.

But the bible does teach that people who are not "of My sheep" will not put their trust in Christ. Others, however, who are open to God's word, might to some degree trust in Christ. These comprise the fields white with harvest for which we are to pray for more laborers.

In Matthew 13 we have examples of four responses to the gospel. The first soil was so hardened he could not even understand the gospel. So prior experience certainly plays a part. The second soil liked good news, but did not fully commit to Christ as Savior and Lord, such that he had not root in himself. The third soil committed, making Christ a priority, but not his overriding priority.

 

[Van]

Another verse impacting the OP question is the one where it says some plant, others water, but God causes the increase. Clearly human activity is said to provide exposure to the gospel, i.e. planting the seed, and the same or other humans water, which is to provide follow-up witnessing, both by words and by the way they live, exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit.

So the bible presents several "deciding factors" when it comes to responding to the gospel. Whether or not we are open to God's word, with some so hardened they cannot even comprehend the gospel. But someone very open to God's word who never has the gospel presented does not respond, God through direct or indirect revelation must reveal His gospel. Not to introduce controversy, but if a person is not drawn to Christ by His lovingkindness in dying for them, they are not among us, as John 6:44 says. Scripture says Jesus demonstrated His love for us by dying for us when we were still sinners, and we love God because He first loved us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

sigh... my thread was invaded by Calvinists...

neither the question, nor my intention, had anything to do with discussing Calvinism x Arminianism

the question is specifically tailored to free will believers

@AVL1984 and @37818 what do you think about my question?

My recent theory, and yes pure speculation, is that perhaps that Lord created all possible combinations of personalities when creating mankind, so while knowing which path each one would take, He still found it worth doing. Worth to the point of giving His Son as a sacrifice and having to crush Him.

I do not think personality has anything to do with it. People from all walks of life and personalities have come to Christ.

I think God knows who will respond to him. and he knows how and what will get them to respond. and he works in their life to get that response.

I also thinks he knows who will not respond no matter what he does. So while they may here the gospel and he may try to get them to understand. They have general revelation (romans 1) and they have the conviction of the spirit who brings everyone to God consciousness and are forced to make a decision. so no matter what. they have no excuse.

 

[37818]

How would a free will believer (aka non-Calvinist) explain why they have believed? They chose to believe and submit to God, but why? Why they said yes to the Spirit while others say no?

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe understood truth is the reason for any belief. [ John 17:17, Romans 10:17-18. ]

Now, against this environment argument is the angel's rebellion. Why 1/3 rebelled while 2/3 didn't, if they all had the same circumstances and all lived in Heaven in the Lord's presence?

They are the reason for the eternal fire for the final judgment, Matthew 25:41. We are not told much else. And also Jude 1:6.

 

[AustinC]

I I believe understood truth is the reason for any belief. [ John 17:17, Romans 10:17-18. ]

John 17:17 - Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Romans 10:17-18 - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

There we have it.
37 believes his intellect caused him to believe.
Neither of the two prooftexts he provided ever support his claim as my quoting the text shows.

Nevertheless, 37 believes his thoughts caused him to believe. He tells us this in his own words.
"I believe understood truth is the reason for any belief."

What he states is contrary to what God says.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
~ Acts 13:48

37, you are proven wrong. Will you admit your error?

 

[37818]

It would seem @AustinC either does not understand or else does not believe in Biblical epistemology.

 

[Alan Gross]

Peace brothers. 5 point Classical Arminian Baptist here.

I've been thinking on the root of belief for a few days and would like to hear your opinions.

How would a free will believer (aka non-Calvinist) explain why they have believed? They chose to believe and submit to God, but why? Why they said yes to the Spirit while others say no?

Is it due to previous personal experiences that make their heart more or less harden, and them more or less prideful? But in this case, one could argue that being born in a certain environment/family, would pre-dispose you to accept or reject the Lord. If God appointed you to be born in a certain circumstance, and that circumstance influences your decision, isn't God kinda forcing/suggesting you on your decision?

Now, against this environment argument is the angel's rebellion. Why 1/3 rebelled while 2/3 didn't, if they all had the same circumstances and all lived in Heaven in the Lord's presence?

I fail to understand the deciding factor and how would that be a sole, fully independent free will decision.

THIS is FUNNY, as it is God Bringing Glory to Himself, in spite of the O.P.:

If God appointed you to be born in a certain circumstance,

This is what I think, "why they believe", maybe better than Arminians do.

Decisionism: In opposition to the Doctrine of Regeneration,
or "Irresistible Grace" (1689, 10* and 20:4**), the error of Decisionism,
building on the error of Prevenient Grace,

claims that some men, of their "own free will",
"use"(?) or "cooperate"(?) with the "Divine Enablement"(?)
of Prevenient Grace and are saved,

while others, also of their "own free will",
"choose not to use" or to "cooperate" with God's Prevenient Grace
and perish in their sins.

Thus, according to the False Doctrine of Decisionism,
the decisive factor in the Conversion of a sinner
is the sinner's decision and cooperation,
not God's Decision and Regeneration.
...

We're dealing with what God has Revealed to Mankind,
in the following Scriptures.

(Not what carnal-minded "man" reasons out, using a mind
that was, and is, affected by The Fall of Adam
and is dead to "the Things of God" that are Spiritually Decerned.)

1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him:

neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."



*Effectual Calling

Those whom God hath predestinated unto Life,
He is Pleased in His Appointed, and Accepted Time,

a Romans 8:30 ►
"Moreover whom He did Predestinate, them He also Called:
and whom He Called, them He also Justified:

and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."

Rom. 11.7. Eph. 1.10,11. 2 Thes. 2.13,14.

Effectually to Call by His word, and Spirit, out of that state of sin, and death,
in which they are by Nature, to Grace and Salvation

b Eph. 2.1-6. by Jesus Christ;

Enlightening their minds, Spiritually, and Savingly to

c Act. 26.18. Eph. 1.17.18.

understand the Things of God; taking away their

d Ezk. 36.26.

heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

Renewing their wills, and by His Almighty Power Determining them

e Deut. 30 6. Ezek. 36.27. Eph. 1.19.

to that which is Good, and Effectually Drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they Come

f Ps. 110.3. Cant. 1.4.

most freely, being made willing by His Grace.


g 2 Tim. 1.9. Eph. 2.8.

not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power,
or agency in the Creature, coworking with His Special Grace,

h 1 Cor. 2.14. Eph. 2.5. Joh. 5.25.

the Creature being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses,
until being Quickened & Renewed by the Holy Spirit,
he is thereby Enabled to Answer this Call,
and to Embrace the Grace Offered and Conveyed in it;

and that by The Power, that Raised up Christ from the Dead.

i Eph. 1.19,20.

19 "And what is the Exceeding Greatness of His Power
to us-ward who believe, according to the Working of His Mighty Power,

20 Which He Wrought in Christ, when He Raised Him from the Dead,
and set Him at His Own Right Hand in the Heavenly Places,"

4. Although the Gospel is the only outward means,
of revealing Christ, and saving Grace;

and is, as such, abundantly sufficient thereunto;

yet that men who are dead in Trespasses may be born again,
Quickened or Regenerated;

there is moreover necessary, an effectual, insuperable (impossible to overcome)

h Ps. 110.3. 1 Cor. 2.14. Eph. 1.19 20

Work of the Holy Spirit, upon the whole Soul,
for the Producing in them a New Spiritual Life;

without which no other means will Effect

i Joh. 6.44. 2 Cor. 4.4.6.

their Conversion unto God.
...

Man by his fall into a state of sin

hath wholly lost

d Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7.

all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;

so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,

e Eph. 2.1.5.

and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength,

to f Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44.

convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

...

Why not include the issue of, "sin",
as these passages do in their preceding verses?

Does, "sin", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
is True enough, however, this fact doesn't Save.

Does, "CONVICTION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Not only mental persuasion but SPIRITUAL,
HEART-FELT CONVICTION is an absolute necessity
if the soul is to be CONVERTED to CHRIST.

An individual sinner must be CONVICTED of SIN
and their heart must be Smitten with Godly Sorrow over their SIN.

Does, "REPENTANCE", exist in your plan of Salvation?

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD of their SIN must be Wrought in them,
before they will, in fact, Come to CHRIST.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent,
ye shall all likewise perish."

The Law was Given that SIN might appear SINFUL
and individual sinners might (in their hearts) realize their GUILT.

Prior to Romans 3:21;

The "Roman's Road", is The Road to Hell, without:

Romans 3:19-20;
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Decisionism; i.e., MENTAL / PHYSICAL CONSENT to "trust", "believe",
"have faith", have "true trust",
"calling upon The Name of The Lord",
"Making Jesus The Lord of your life, "not wanting to be 'Left Behind',
"believing on The Lord Jesus Christ"
without SPIRITUAL CONVICTION and SPIRITUAL REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

CONSENT of SIN without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

Does, "REGENERATION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

I SEE NO REGENERATION in most 'plans of salvation'.

THERE MUST BE SPIRITUAL CONVICTION of SIN,
TO BE FORGIVEN.

The lost sinner must be, "lost",
and have a soul-Wrought NEED for a SAVIOR before they are SAVED.

 

[Alan Gross]

As a Bible believer:

John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God.

John 15:3; Now ye are clean
through the word which I have spoken unto you.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh,
and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
and in much assurance;

as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Titus 3:5-6; Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.

The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel,
by THE NEW BIRTH.

 

[atpollard]

As a Bible believer:

The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
that The Work of REGENERATION
is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
through The WORD
which Enables the sinner
to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel,
by THE NEW BIRTH.

You don’t make a very good Arminian.

 

[Alan Gross]

You don’t make a very good Arminian.

Thank you, atpollard. PRAISE JESUS!

 

[DaveXR650]

sigh... my thread was invaded by Calvinists...

neither the question, nor my intention, had anything to do with discussing Calvinism x Arminianism

the question is specifically tailored to free will believers

I thought that classic free will Arminian Baptists believed that without the conviction of the Holy Spirit no one could be saved. In fact, fundamentalists tend to believe that too. I remember fundamentalist pastors interrupting an invitation and saying something like "If you feel any call to come to Christ don't put it off. It may be that you will never be called again. This may be your last chance". Or they would frame it more like you might get hit by a car in the parking lot or something. But the point is, it was dangerous to trifle with the Holy Spirit. I think the General Baptists believe that the call is one of persuasion primarily and it can be dangerously resisted. That grace is always resistible.

I'm an invading Calvinist but I think the means are just as ordained by God as the election. So you can have warm, persuasive preaching, evangelistic meetings, good works to show Christian love. You raise and train your kids, you watch their environment and try to protect them from evil. We're not that much different in practice.

 

[Alan Gross]

I thought that classic free will Arminian Baptists believed that without the conviction of the Holy Spirit no one could be saved. In fact, fundamentalists tend to believe that too. I remember fundamentalist pastors interrupting an invitation and saying something like "If you feel any call to come to Christ don't put it off. It may be that you will never be called again. This may be your last chance". Or they would frame it more like you might get hit by a car in the parking lot or something. But the point is, it was dangerous to trifle with the Holy Spirit. I think the General Baptists believe that the call is one of persuasion primarily and it can be dangerously resisted. That grace is always resistible.

I'm an invading Calvinist but I think the means are just as ordained by God as the election. So you can have warm, persuasive preaching, evangelistic meetings, good works to show Christian love. You raise and train your kids, you watch their environment and try to protect them from evil. We're not that much different in practice.

General Baptists believe that the call is one of persuasion primarily and it can be dangerously resisted. That grace is always resistible.

I say, one or both could be wrong (it's not), but BOTH can't be right.

Do General Baptists not ever "KNOW" if they are, "SAVED", or not?

THAT'S Not Even "a SALVATION"?

= wrong.

= error

= devious

Leaving, CONVICTION by The Effectual Call,
THEN: "whom He Did PREDESTINATE, them He also CALLED"

+ being CONVERTED, by Being GIVEN REPENTANCE and FAITH,
which is The New BIRTH, as THE WAY of SALVATION.

 

[DaveXR650]

Alan, I have a book called "Still Sovereign" and it's a collection of writings by modern Calvinists. One thing they point out is that whereas we used to worry about whether we were saved or not, now that we're Calvinists we worry about whether we are elect or not. And the Puritan branch of Calvinists, especially the Scottish branch, seemed to rely mostly on your walk and life as evidence of being saved. They in practice were closer to General Baptists in that area than some other Calvinists, who put assurance more as included with faith. Now the writers in "Still Sovereign" were trying to make a joke but they had a point. Assurance is a big deal for Calvinists too.

 

[IESUwaShu]

Great answer to this topic Are you better than your friend who didn't believe the Gospel? - YouTube

 

[AustinC]

Great answer to this topic Are you better than your friend who didn't believe the Gospel? - YouTube

The question asked, "Are you better than your friend who didn't believe the Gospel?" is often a straw man question. The Bible tells us that none are righteous not even one. We are told that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. This, then, answers the question. The answer is a resounding "No!!!"

But, when the topic of election is brought up, people who are ignorant of scripture want to prescribe a cause to the election. However, God never tells us why He elected to redeem some and not others. The best we can answer is what Paul answers in Romans 9.
*Romans 9:13-29*
As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

 

[canadyjd]

Peace brothers. 5 point Classical Arminian Baptist here.

I've been thinking on the root of belief for a few days and would like to hear your opinions.

How would a free will believer (aka non-Calvinist) explain why they have believed? They chose to believe and submit to God, but why? Why they said yes to the Spirit while others say no?

Is it due to previous personal experiences that make their heart more or less harden, and them more or less prideful? But in this case, one could argue that being born in a certain environment/family, would pre-dispose you to accept or reject the Lord. If God appointed you to be born in a certain circumstance, and that circumstance influences your decision, isn't God kinda forcing/suggesting you on your decision?

Now, against this environment argument is the angel's rebellion. Why 1/3 rebelled while 2/3 didn't, if they all had the same circumstances and all lived in Heaven in the Lord's presence?

I fail to understand the deciding factor and how would that be a sole, fully independent free will decision.

Welcome to the BB.

peace to you

 

[37818]

How would a free will believer (aka non-Calvinist) explain why they have believed? They chose to believe and submit to God, but why? Why they said yes to the Spirit while others say no?

I is accepted as the free gift, Romans 6:23. Christ paid what we cannot pay and live, Romans 5:8. Romans 3:23-26.

 

[AustinC]

I is accepted as the free gift, Romans 6:23. Christ paid what we cannot pay and live, Romans 5:8. Romans 3:23-26.

*John 10:26*
But you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.