Asbury "Revival"

[AustinC]

Paul wasn't referring to bad theology, he was referring to sound/biblical theology from men who had bad/sinful motives; having greater notoriety than Paul, etc.

I have seen persons saved in the Roman Catholic Church and die attending the RCC. Its theology is bad, but that doesn't stop God from saving his children.

I may view Asbury College theology as incorrect in a number of places, but that doesn't mean that God isn't genuinely saving and renewing his children in this event.

Speaking only for me, I will not pass judgment. I will pray that the world is reconciled and renewed, just as God did with the Thessalonians.
*1 Thessalonians 1:6-10*
And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[KenH]

have seen persons saved in the Roman Catholic Church and die attending the RCC.

So you think that someone can be saved(I'm not discussing infants and such) without ever hearing the gospel of Christ? Really???? From what you usually post in threads we both participate in I would never have known you thought such a thing.

 

[AustinC]

So you think that someone can be saved(I'm not discussing infants and such) without ever hearing the gospel of Christ? Really???? From what you usually post in threads we both participate in I would never have known you thought such a thing.

Ken, did I say that???
Come on. Read what I actually said. Then, stop projecting what you think I said.

I am saying that God saves his elect, even when they are attending non-Calvinist churches and events. God graciously saved them, even when they never get out of those churches who emphasize man's cooperation with God in salvation.
I am saying that God is amazingly kind and gracious to us, even if we don't grasp the fullness of His Sovereignty.
God makes dead men come to life and God gives them faith...even in churches who present bad theology.
Ken, if you disagree with that statement, I am not bothered. Our God can save His children via any means He desires.

 

[JonC]

You posted that they affirmed the following in terms of the gospel: "God, in His prevenient grace, restores moral sensibility to all humankind and enables all to respond to His love and to accept His saving grace."

That is a false, man-made, unBiblical idea. It is balderdash!. It is rubbish!

Yes, they hold doctrine in addition to the gospel that I disagree with.

They are Methodists. They hold the unbiblical Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, an unbiblical view of baptism, etc. But these are in addition to the gospel.

 

[JonC]

Read the article at the link I provided in my post #22 above.

I did. The author complains that Moody does not agree with his ideas about the gospel, and he sins by condemning a servant of Another who holds the exact same gospel.

The issue is Popham holds a false gospel in addition to the gospel (he believes his ideas about the gospel....his understanding....is the gospel itself and places himself over God and Scripture).

Many make that error.

Perhaps that is why God commanded us not to act in the way of those like Popham.

 

[JonC]

No, they, as LOTS of people who call themselves Christians, preach a false, man-made gospel and not the gospel of Christ. Any doctrinal system that places ANY conditions on the sinner and does not teach that ALL of the conditions were fulfilled by Christ is a false gospel and not the gospel of Christ.

This is false. There is a difference between the gospel and what we think about the gospel.

This is why God commanded us not to judge other servants. We are to judge within our congregations.

I believe that what we believe about the Atonement is a foundational belief. As such I believe God wrote in the text of Scripture what we are to believe. But I was no less saved when I believed Penal Substitution Theory.

The reason is what we believe about the gospel is not the gospel itself.

 

[tyndale1946]

This is false. There is a difference between the gospel and what we think about the gospel.

This is why God commanded us not to judge other servants. We are to judge within our congregations.

I believe that what we believe about the Atonement is a foundational belief. As such I believe God wrote in the text of Scripture what we are to believe. But I was no less saved when I believed Penal Substitution Theory.

The reason is what we believe about the gospel is not the gospel itself.

I been looking at this revival and asking myself is this out of the norm?... What is happening is happening and I'm not going to question it because I don't understand it... Is it true or is it false?... Only God knows the answer but I remember this was ask by the Apostle John when Jesus was here and this is what the Lord said... Brother Glen

Luke 9: 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[JonC]

I been looking at this revival and asking myself is this out of the norm?... What is happening is happening and I'm not going to question it because I don't understand it... Is it true or is it false?... Only God knows the answer but I remember this was ask by the Apostle John when Jesus was here and this is what the Lord said... Brother Glen

Luke 9: 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

I agree.

One problem with being outspoken against other churches is we can often find ourself at odds with God.

Another problem is this is not what we are called to do.

I believe Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed Baptists, Landmark churches, Pentecostals ...that is, everybody who does mot believe like me....holds errors in their doctrine.

We all believe those who disagree with us do so in error.

But that does not mean those who hold different views about the gospel are necessarily satanic.

 

[JonC]

“We are all made in the image of God and we are good in God’s eyes, and Christians should never mistreat anybody because they don’t believe in what you believe.” - Sonny Hernandez, Trinity Gospel Church, 2017

 

[KenH]

"we are good in God’s eyes"

That statement is false and unBilblical.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[KenH]

Obviously, I knew when I posted something against that mess going on at Asbury in Kentucky that it would go over on this board about as well as a skunk at garden party.

I refuse to along with the idea of accepting an amorphous gospel that can have just about anything crammed into it with people believing just about anything they come up with in their imagination about Christ, who do not believe He is an actual Savior but only a partial Savior that didn't "finish the job", because they think they make the difference between being saved or lost.

I am not tolerate toward false gospels. There is only one gospel of Christ. I go along with what the apostle Paul stated about those who preach false gospels:

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[KenH]

But that does not mean those who hold different views about the gospel are necessarily satanic.

There is only one gospel of Christ. It is declared in the Bible, God's Word. We mere worms don't get to make it after our own image. That is basically what Eve fell for. Satan offered her a "different view" about that command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and Eve fell for it hook, line, and sinker. So, it isn't really surprising at all that lost sinners follow in Satan's footsteps and, well, just offer a different viewpoint on the gospel and other lost sinners see it as satisfying their fleshly wants, just like Eve.

 

[HatedByAll]

You are all arguing against the righteousness of Methodism. In my opinion it would be more constructive to discuss this particular movement in and of itself.

Here is the chapel service given right before the start of the "revival."

Here is the testimony of the speaker. Zach Meerkreebs — Testifyit

 

[JonC]

That statement is false and unBilblical.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I agree. That's my point.

It wasn't my words but a quote (Sonny Hernandez, pastor at Trinity Gospel Church, from a 2017 article in Stars and Stripes defending his statements regarding Muslim doctrine, saying he was speaking theologicaly and not out of spite for other people).

Are you willing to condemn Hernandez as satanic for making a statement you find false and unbiblical?

Does that statement mean Hernandez teaches a false gospel?


I don't think so.

 

[KenH]

I agree. That's my point.

It wasn't my words but a quote (Sonny Hernandez, pastor at Trinity Gospel Church, from a 2017 article in Stars and Stripes defending his statements regarding Muslim doctrine, saying he was speaking theologicaly and not out of spite for other people).

Got a link to the article?

 

[JonC]

Got a link to the article?

Yes, I do.

 

[KenH]

Yes, I do.

The reason I ask is because I don't know personally when Sonny Hernandez believed in the Christ of the Bible. I see on Amazon that he apparently started publishing books and selling them on there, specifically on the gospel, in mid-2021.

 

[JonC]

The reason I ask is because I don't know personally when Sonny Hernandez believed in the Christ of the Bible. I see on Amazon that he apparently started publishing books and selling them on there, specifically on the gospel, in mid-2021.

If a pastor, I'm sure he has believed in Christ for some time.

I was just messing with you, btw, with my answer.

Whike I think his comment may be partially wrong, I agree with his position regarding military chaplains.

Here's the article:

Air Force chaplain comments raise debate on religious freedom vs. personal faith

 

[KenH]

f a pastor, I'm sure he has believed in Christ for some time.

No necessarily. I thought I was a Christian for over 48.5 years. I was wrong.

 

[KenH]

I was just messing with you, btw, with my answer.

No problem. Thanks for the link.

I don't know him personally. I don't know why he made that statement back in 2017. I would be surprised if he made such a statement today about "we are good in God’s eyes" seeing as he published a book in 2022 on the subject of Biblical Reprobation: A primer on the most hated and neglected doctrine, and, for example, wrote this:

"The doctrine of reprobation is biblical, and it teaches the following: in accordance with His free and immutable will, and to the praise of His glorious grace, God actively and unconditionally predestined the wicked to hell, and has an unremitting hatred towards them.

According to Scripture, God does not desire to save reprobates, God does not love reprobates, God does not give grace to reprobates, and God never offers salvation to reprobates."