Ash Wednesday

[blackbird]

Yes, including the imposition of ashes. The church which I serve as interim had done Ash Wednesday before I came, but sort of verbosely. Last year we decided to impose ashes on foreheads, and found that many people (well, 50-75) received the significance of that very well. So tonight I will do a brief meditation on Psalm 139 and Francis Thompson's poem, "The Hound of Heaven" and we will apply ashes to those who wish them. Certainly we will not suggest that the ashes themselves are somehow workers of repentance, but they are a sign of one's intent.

Having served a church for twenty years that followed the liturgical calendar, I can attest how meaningful it is to those who take it seriously, but also how difficult it is to get Baptists for the most part to pay attention to more than Christmas and Easter!

Ash Wednesday is a Roman Catholic tradition---to participate in any of the sorts is to participate and welcome their branch of paganism--no matter how meaningful it seems nor how serious you take it!!!!!

What did the Apostle Paul say?? You can't eat at the Lord's table and eat at the table of demons at the same time---isn't that what Scripture teaches??

 

[Jerome]

Calvary Baptist (CO)

Hayes Barton Baptist (NC)

Broadway Baptist (TX)

Calvary Baptist (DC)

 

[Zenas]

Ash Wednesday is a Roman Catholic tradition---to participate in any of the sorts is to participate and welcome their branch of paganism--no matter how meaningful it seems nor how serious you take it!!!!!

What did the Apostle Paul say?? You can't eat at the Lord's table and eat at the table of demons at the same time---isn't that what Scripture teaches??

So . . . I would assume you also avoid church bells and pipe organs, observance of Christmas and Easter, and for that matter Sunday worship. They are all Catholic traditions.

 

[4His_glory]

So . . . I would assume you also avoid church bells and pipe organs, observance of Christmas and Easter, and for that matter Sunday worship. They are all Catholic traditions.

Christmas and Easter have moved well beyond the realm of Roman Catholic Tradition. Sunday worship existed before the Catholic church. So what you mention is irrelevant to the conversation.

The lenten season and Ash Wednesday are very closely associated with the Catholic church. As such I do not recommend a Baptist or any other evangelical church to observe them.

I would never consider it within the context that I minister- a traditionally Catholic culture with the RCC being the religion of the state. To do so what seriously weaken our testimony and confuse the gospel.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Christmas and Easter have moved well beyond the realm of Roman Catholic Tradition. Sunday worship existed before the Catholic church. So what you mention is irrelevant to the conversation.

The lenten season and Ash Wednesday are very closely associated with the Catholic church. As such I do not recommend a Baptist or any other evangelical church to observe them.

I would never consider it within the context that I minister- a traditionally Catholic culture with the RCC being the religion of the state. To do so what seriously weaken our testimony and confuse the gospel.

That's just a load of nonsense. We're reflecting on Christ and his sacrifice. Doesn't matter if the Catholics do it or not. Since the NT was compiled after Constantine came to the throne and declared the eddict of Milan making Catholicism the center religion of the empire (and the NT was canonized in 393 long after Constantinge and the purported Establishment of the Roman Catholic chruch) we can also say do away with scripture since it was the Roman Catholic Church that canonized it and they're a bunch of Demons. What kind of sence does that make. None and its nonsense.

A little actual history would be refreshing on this board.

 

[4His_glory]

That's just a load of nonsense. We're reflecting on Christ and his sacrifice. Doesn't matter if the Catholics do it or not. Since the NT was compiled after Constantine came to the throne and declared the eddict of Milan making Catholicism the center religion of the empire (and the NT was canonized in 393 long after Constantinge and the purported Establishment of the Roman Catholic chruch) we can also say do away with scripture since it was the Roman Catholic Church that canonized it and they're a bunch of Demons. What kind of sence does that make. None and its nonsense.

A little actual history would be refreshing on this board.

Nonsense? I think not. It does matter what Catholics believe especially if you are ministering in a predominately Catholic culture. Ash Wednesday and lent are both very important to Catholics here as part of a means of being in God´s good favor. Why would I confuse the true and simple gospel of grace that we preach by leading people in a act associated with scramentalism.

Though not officially cannonized until 393, the books that comprise the NT were long considered Scripture before that time. However the first clear observance of Ash Wednesday was not until 960. So yes it is strongly associated with Catholicism. Especially in my part of the world. How would you know? You don´t live here!

 

[4His_glory]

Just wondering where in the scriptures our Lord did the ash Wednesday thing? I can find the Lord's Supper and Baptism but not ash Wednesday. I thought this was an RC thing.

You are right on target here. It is an RC thing even though many seen to deny it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nonsense? I think not. It does matter what Catholics believe especially if you are ministering in a predominately Catholic culture. Ash Wednesday and lent are both very important to Catholics here as part of a means of being in God´s good favor. Why would I confuse the true and simple gospel of grace that we preach by leading people in a act associated with scramentalism.

Though not officially cannonized until 393, the books that comprise the NT were long considered Scripture before that time. However the first clear observance of Ash Wednesday was not until 960. So yes it is strongly associated with Catholicism. Especially in my part of the world. How would you know? You don´t live here!

Where do you live? I may not live their now. However, I've lived in many places over the entire planet. My father being an american diplomat and all. However, you may be right that I don't know where you live. Keep in mind that the books though in existance before canonization were not the only authoritative documents that churches relied on which is why the leaders had to create the rule or canon of scripture. Some churches may not have the entire library of NT books. As you can see with my point on the other denomination thread regard the Apostle John. Still throw out the canon of NT books because it was done after constantine just because its very Roman Catholic? I think not. The calander of the early church served as times of devotion rather than celebrating a pagan rite. Do christians give up the communion service because it resembles the ceremony done for Mythras? I don't think so. You may feel you're on the front line because your dealing with a country of Catholics. But people often in these situations tend to throw out the baby with the bath water. Not every thing Catholic is bad. Unless you're a disciple of Jack Chick in which case you're being misled.

 

[annsni]

That's just a load of nonsense. We're reflecting on Christ and his sacrifice. Doesn't matter if the Catholics do it or not. Since the NT was compiled after Constantine came to the throne and declared the eddict of Milan making Catholicism the center religion of the empire (and the NT was canonized in 393 long after Constantinge and the purported Establishment of the Roman Catholic chruch) we can also say do away with scripture since it was the Roman Catholic Church that canonized it and they're a bunch of Demons. What kind of sence does that make. None and its nonsense.

A little actual history would be refreshing on this board.

History would be refreshing if it were correct. I'm sorry but the NT was together before Constantine. Constantine just confirmed what was and what was not in the canon.

 

[annsni]

Where do you live? I may not live their now. However, I've lived in many places over the entire planet. My father being an american diplomat and all.

I'm on Long Island. The vast majority of those here are either Catholic or Jewish. I'm in Northport which is very much predominantly Catholic. I grew up in Catholic schools - and my family was Catholic before we were saved. I totally associate Ash Wednesday and Lent with the Catholic church. Completely. I've never heard of a protestant church - or Baptist church - doing anything like this.

 

[4His_glory]

History would be refreshing if it were correct. I'm sorry but the NT was together before Constantine. Constantine just confirmed what was and what was not in the canon.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

History would be refreshing if it were correct. I'm sorry but the NT was together before Constantine. Constantine just confirmed what was and what was not in the canon.

Constantine was dead before the canonization of the NT. Books were in existance but not all the churches had all the library of books in the NT. Also churches also relied on other writings as authoritative with the books of the NT. I would say the NT wasn't settled until 393. The apostles did not make a conserted effort to ensure each and every one of the books of the New Testiment was distributed as a single volume to all the early churches nor did they ensure a single tome combining the OT with the NT. So their were no bible believing churches in the early church. Just Scripture believing churches.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

The phrase annsi that you quoted has historical issues with it so its not really a good point.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm on Long Island. The vast majority of those here are either Catholic or Jewish. I'm in Northport which is very much predominantly Catholic. I grew up in Catholic schools - and my family was Catholic before we were saved. I totally associate Ash Wednesday and Lent with the Catholic church. Completely. I've never heard of a protestant church - or Baptist church - doing anything like this.

I would say that as far as baptist churches go you may be right. However, there are Lutherans, Episcopals, Anglican (not necissarily the same thing asking them), and others. So there are protestants who do celebrate these type of things though there may be distinct catholic aspects to them.

And I'm sorry for you with the number of Yenta's living on that Island. I still like cream cheese and bagels though. :laugh:

 

[4His_glory]

Where do you live? I may not live their now. However, I've lived in many places over the entire planet. My father being an american diplomat and all. However, you may be right that I don't know where you live. Keep in mind that the books though in existance before canonization were not the only authoritative documents that churches relied on which is why the leaders had to create the rule or canon of scripture. Some churches may not have the entire library of NT books. As you can see with my point on the other denomination thread regard the Apostle John. Still throw out the canon of NT books because it was done after constantine just because its very Roman Catholic? I think not. The calander of the early church served as times of devotion rather than celebrating a pagan rite. Do christians give up the communion service because it resembles the ceremony done for Mythras? I don't think so. You may feel you're on the front line because your dealing with a country of Catholics. But people often in these situations tend to throw out the baby with the bath water. Not every thing Catholic is bad. Unless you're a disciple of Jack Chick in which case you're being misled.

I live in Argentina.

Communion is a clear NT ordinance that did not stem from the RCC.

I agree with you that not everything Catholic is bad. And I agree with you on Chick.

However, I am a Baptist church-planting missionary in a culture that is heavily influenced by Catholic tradition. I know what I am talking about when I say that the observance of Lent and Ash Wednesday would confuse the gospel. When the people believe that observances such as AW and lent are means of finding favor with God, and i tell them that none one can find favor with God through ritual but solely based upon His grace, and then if I were in turn to observe AW, it would indeed cause confusion in already confused and spiritually dead people. Why would I want to do that?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I live in Argentina.

Communion is a clear NT ordinance that did not stem from the RCC.

I agree with you that not everything Catholic is bad. And I agree with you on Chick.

However, I am a Baptist church-planting missionary in a culture that is heavily influenced by Catholic tradition. I know what I am talking about when I say that the observance of Lent and Ash Wednesday would confuse the gospel. When the people believe that observances such as AW and lent are means of finding favor with God, and i tell them that none one can find favor with God through ritual but solely based upon His grace, and then if I were in turn to observe AW, it would indeed cause confusion in already confused and spiritually dead people. Why would I want to do that?

Unfortunately catholics seem to always want to find favor with God by doing things. But AW and Lent are devotional not sacraficial unless its fasting (which does occur in Lent but not the way I think of it). The thing is I am certain that the RCC church teaches that these things are devotional as well. But as you know many catholics don't even know their own faith. I get what your saying about trying to gain favor by doing such and such but honestly do catholic converts try to gain favor from God by doing devotionals like bible study or prayer time? Which catholics (well, in the states can't speak for argentina and I wont cry for that country either - :smilewinkgrin: ) do as well? I don't think so. As long as you teach that this is not gaining favor but devotion to reflect on what christ did for us.

 

[Zenas]

History would be refreshing if it were correct. I'm sorry but the NT was together before Constantine. Constantine just confirmed what was and what was not in the canon.

Constantine had almost nothing to do with the canon. He did convene the Council of Nicea, which mostly dealt with the Arian controversy and formalized the concept of the Trinity. However, neither the Council nor Constantine attempted to alter, add to, take from, or to declare what is or is not canonical. The canon was formalized at the Council of Hippo around 393. Constantine had been dead nearly 60 years when that happened.

 

[DHK]

I live in Argentina.

Communion is a clear NT ordinance that did not stem from the RCC.

I agree with you that not everything Catholic is bad. And I agree with you on Chick.

However, I am a Baptist church-planting missionary in a culture that is heavily influenced by Catholic tradition. I know what I am talking about when I say that the observance of Lent and Ash Wednesday would confuse the gospel. When the people believe that observances such as AW and lent are means of finding favor with God, and i tell them that none one can find favor with God through ritual but solely based upon His grace, and then if I were in turn to observe AW, it would indeed cause confusion in already confused and spiritually dead people. Why would I want to do that?

As a missionary in another nation (other than Canada) I find myself teaching the same things. Ritualism such as Lent and Ash Wednesday only lends confusion to the gospel and the Christian walk. Lent especially confuses what is the true Biblical concept of fasting. I grew up as a Catholic. Lent was a time of giving up something. It wasn't true fasting. I would "give up chewing bubble-gum" for example. That was my "fasting." Catholics make a mockery of it. Besides it is not taught in the Bible; it is extra-Biblical. It is solely Catholic in nature. Why imitate the Catholic Church in these things. It is another sign of the ecumenical movement putting its claws around Baptist churches who will give into its practices.

Pure devotion is described by Jesus:
Matthew 6:6-7 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Matthew 6:17-18 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

 

[Zenas]

Christmas and Easter have moved well beyond the realm of Roman Catholic Tradition.

So maybe if we all start to observe Lent, it will move beyond RC Tradition.

Sunday worship existed before the Catholic church. So what you mention is irrelevant to the conversation.

I've always thought the Catholic church got started in 33 A.D. and that Sunday worship began several years later.

The lenten season and Ash Wednesday are very closely associated with the Catholic church. As such I do not recommend a Baptist or any other evangelical church to observe them.

I haven't been to any Lenten services today but I'm going to prayer meeting tonight and I'm sure it will be mentioned during the service. For what it's worth, I have never observed Lent but this year I plan to do some fasting, both for my waistline and to honor God.

 

[4His_glory]

Unfortunately catholics seem to always want to find favor with God by doing things.

True, but such is the sad state of all humanity not just Catholics.

But AW and Lent are devotional not sacraficial unless its fasting (which does occur in Lent but not the way I think of it). The thing is I am certain that the RCC church teaches that these things are devotional as well.

Do you have a source for this? Because what I have seen is the opposite. Consider this from the Catholic Catechism: "438 The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the Church's penitential practice. These times are particularly appropriate for spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as signs of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works)."

Penance as taught by the RCC is not the same as biblical repentance. Lent is taught as an "intense moment of the Church´s penitential practice." That certainly is not devotional but has a lot to do with the RCCs teaching on soteriology of salvation through penitential works. Ask any Catholic if they believe they are seeking God´s pleasure by means of their lenten customs and traditions and I would guess that just about every one, including the less educated in the RCC´s official teachings would answer in the affirmative.

But as you know many catholics don't even know their own faith. I get what your saying about trying to gain favor by doing such and such but honestly do catholic converts try to gain favor from God by doing devotionals like bible study or prayer time? Which catholics (well, in the states can't speak for argentina and I wont cry for that country either - ) do as well? I don't think so. As long as you teach that this is not gaining favor but devotion to reflect on what christ did for us.

Many do not know the theological dogma of their church in detail, but they still are convinced that their actions, yes even Bible study (to my knowledge not many Catholics practice this, at least here anyways) and prayer find favor with God and are not purely devotional in nature.

If we were as evangelical Baptist believers to observe Lent and Ash Wednesday here it would undoubtedly cause confusion in the minds of former Catholics because of what they have been taught it is, as well as cloud the gospel since it is closely associated with penance which is completely contrary to the doctrine of justification by faith alone.