Ash Wednesday

[Melanie]

While all Catholics are encouraged to attend Mass (or at least attend a service where ashes are imposed) on Ash Wednesday in order to begin the Lenten season with the proper attitude and reflection, Ash Wednesday is not a Holy Day of Obligation. It is, however, a day of fasting and abstinence. Catholics have an obligation in that sense.

I double checked and you are right of course, I just could not imagine NOT attending Mass on that day.

As I attend a church serviced by the SPPX and only the Tridentine Mass, I am often startled about the incredible changes that have been introduced in the RCC. I sure ain't a Canon Law scholar.

The Bone Yard I have heard of is that of the Tibetan Buddhists who after their death rites laid the corpse in the BoneYard for the vultures, I do not know if this is still practised due to the Han ethnic cleansing of this so called autonomous region of China.

 

[Walter]

I double checked and you are right of course, I just could not imagine NOT attending Mass on that day.

As I attend a church serviced by the SPPX and only the Tridentine Mass, I am often startled about the incredible changes that have been introduced in the RCC. I sure ain't a Canon Law scholar.

The Bone Yard I have heard of is that of the Tibetan Buddhists who after their death rites laid the corpse in the BoneYard for the vultures, I do not know if this is still practised due to the Han ethnic cleansing of this so called autonomous region of China.

We have SPPX parish in a nearby town and I recently paid a visit. I was awestruck by the beauty and reverance the Tridentine Mass. As with most of the Catholic Churches in the Central Valley, it was packed with people standing outside on the steps.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thats what I thought.... why is it referred to as a mystery? was it not foretold?

Just a clarification on how Catholics view "Mystery". In the Catholic understanding a "Mystery" is that which is known by divine revelation". In other words human reason alone could not define it thus must be revealed by God and accepted by faith. But that doesn't mean reason cannot limitedly elaborate on something that has been already revealed by God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I double checked and you are right of course, I just could not imagine NOT attending Mass on that day.

As I attend a church serviced by the SPPX and only the Tridentine Mass, I am often startled about the incredible changes that have been introduced in the RCC. I sure ain't a Canon Law scholar.

The Bone Yard I have heard of is that of the Tibetan Buddhists who after their death rites laid the corpse in the BoneYard for the vultures, I do not know if this is still practised due to the Han ethnic cleansing of this so called autonomous region of China.

My Parish has a Tridentine Mass at an adjacent chapel. I enjoy attending occasionally. However, Its important to have the 1962 Roman Missal when you attend. BTW I do have the expanded canon law with exposition on each canon. Its a useful tool.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just a clarification on how Catholics view "Mystery". In the Catholic understanding a "Mystery" is that which is known by divine revelation". In other words human reason alone could not define it thus must be revealed by God and accepted by faith. But that doesn't mean reason cannot limitedly elaborate on something that has been already revealed by God.

You know TS, as a boy in catholic school I always asked these teaching nuns a myriad of questions (I guess they encouraged it). When I backed them into a corner, the stock answer became that its a "Mystery" & we would finally get the answers when we get to heaven. What I never learned from these nuns was the concept's of Historic Christianity & Systematic Theology. This they withheld from us but spent allot of time cramming home the memorization of prayers, the importance of going to church & all holy days of obligation & finally the one thing that completely separated my family & I from the rest..... that I was in fact born a Roman Catholic & thus a member of the true church that Christ established.

In retrospect, this so PO'd my father that one day he spent about a half hour with me in the car, pulled over to the side of the road to tell me about Martin Luther & his argument with the RC church. For my father was communicating to me (at 7 or 8 YO) the other side of the story one that his family as Reformed people had taught him.

I look back now & I will proclaim that Dad did the right thing. Catholicism appeals to those who have a very contemplative nature that can accept Mary worship, Priests in lace gowns, chants, gold chalices, ashes on the forehead in the form of the cross, incense & all these other traditions that make up the RCC. As for me they dont matter to the heart when sitting prostrate before a Pure & Holy Sovereign Savior. It is the heart that must be made pure.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Bone Yard I have heard of is that of the Tibetan Buddhists who after their death rites laid the corpse in the BoneYard for the vultures, I do not know if this is still practised due to the Han ethnic cleansing of this so called autonomous region of China.

Thanks very much!
I collect data with regard to the 'bone-day' concept, and this is really good stuff for me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn wrote:
Here you have it, another of those weak and beggarly first principle nogods superstitiously adored, worship, hung on to for the salvation of one's soul.

The Roman Catholic "Paschal Mystery" is blasphemous idolatry. Catholicism has not changed one bit; it still and more than ever is just what the Reformers used to call it, the anti-Christ!

Could you please explain how the Paschal Mystery' is 'blasphemous idolatry'?

Any tradition, handed down or which has evolved in the Church which my be "beyond" what is written will never conflict or go against what is written, at least *not* in the Church Jesus Himself founded or He'd be a liar as would the Holy Spirit . The Church is an 'organism' however, and grows and evolves over the years, but never goes against the word of God as is *written.* Most Baptists and non-denoms have their own 'traditions' that they 'cling to' but most of the individual congregants never would admit that they do or see it that way. .............

You have explained it yourself, ably and amply.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Gerhard Ebersoehn wrote:
Here you have it, another of those weak and beggarly first principle nogods superstitiously adored, worship, hung on to for the salvation of one's soul.

The Roman Catholic "Paschal Mystery" is blasphemous idolatry. Catholicism has not changed one bit; it still and more than ever is just what the Reformers used to call it, the anti-Christ!



You have explained it yourself, ably and amply.

Gerhard Ebersoehn, perhaps its a language problem......However what you are saying to Walter appears to contradict itself. Please clarify yourself so I can solidify your stance in this dialog.

Thanks

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You know TS, as a boy in catholic school I always asked these teaching nuns a myriad of questions (I guess they encouraged it). When I backed them into a corner, the stock answer became that its a "Mystery" & we would finally get the answers when we get to heaven. What I never learned from these nuns was the concept's of Historic Christianity & Systematic Theology. This they withheld from us but spent allot of time cramming home the memorization of prayers, the importance of going to church & all holy days of obligation & finally the one thing that completely separated my family & I from the rest..... that I was in fact born a Roman Catholic & thus a member of the true church that Christ established.

American Nuns!!! The New York times reported

In 2008, the church announced an investigation into the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella group of 1,500 orders that represent about 80 percent of Catholic sisters in the United States. In April 2012, the Vatican released the results of that inquiry, which found that the conference had “serious doctrinal problems.’'
The Vatican’s harsh assessment said the group had challenged church teaching

When you consider the percentage of nuns which descent from actual Catholic teaching and consider their access to Catholics Schools and educating the young its not suprising you got nothing more than what you have expressed. I have to admit it happened to me as well.

In retrospect, this so PO'd my father that one day he spent about a half hour with me in the car, pulled over to the side of the road to tell me about Martin Luther & his argument with the RC church. For my father was communicating to me (at 7 or 8 YO) the other side of the story one that his family as Reformed people had taught him.

I look back now & I will proclaim that Dad did the right thing.

I can certainly understand his reasons for doing so! I don't blame him.

Catholicism appeals to those who have a very contemplative nature that can accept Mary worship, Priests in lace gowns, chants, gold chalices, ashes on the forehead in the form of the cross, incense & all these other traditions that make up the RCC

Maybe contemplation isn't such a bad thing after all Jesus spent time away from people to contemplate and pray. As for Mary worship. I don't abide it. However, I think your definition of worship is different than mine. As for priestly robes, chants, gold chalices, ashes, and incense these are tradition. However, they are symbols to remind us of different aspects of the gospels and the faith passed down. They are a rich tradition going back through the ages.

As for me they dont matter to the heart when sitting prostrate before a Pure & Holy Sovereign Savior. It is the heart that must be made pure.

I agree. Symbolism no matter how rich and precious is nothing if the heart isn't properly ordered to God. A properly ordered heart will rejoice in the symbolism that reminds it of its salvation and its love.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree. Symbolism no matter how rich and precious is nothing if the heart isn't properly ordered to God. A properly ordered heart will rejoice in the symbolism that reminds it of its salvation and its love.

Ahhhh.......ok...... to each their own. But I dont really need symbols.... I need the constant love, mercy & forgiveness of the One who is "I AM"....

Exodus 3:14 (NIV)

God said to Moses, "I am who I am .
This is what you are to say to the Israelites:
'I AM has sent me to you.' "

No embellishment necessary.

 

[Melanie]

My Parish has a Tridentine Mass at an adjacent chapel. I enjoy attending occasionally. However, Its important to have the 1962 Roman Missal when you attend. BTW I do have the expanded canon law with exposition on each canon. Its a useful tool.

Yes the 1962 Missal is the only one in use where I attend. I leave Canon law to those whose brain does not explode at the subject. The Credo is sufficent for me.:type:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn, perhaps its a language problem......However what you are saying to Walter appears to contradict itself. Please clarify yourself so I can solidify your stance in this dialog.

Thanks

How the Paschal Mystery' is 'blasphemous idolatry', explained:

Any tradition, ‘handed down’, or which evolved in ‘the church’ that boasts Jesus Himself founded it, goes beyond what is written and will always conflict and go against what “is written”. Or Christ would be a liar as would the Holy Spirit. Because that ‘Church’ so-called, is a wicked 'organism' that has grown and evolved over the years, having gone further and further against the Word of God as “is written” as well as, as is come in Jesus Christ.

Catholics like all ‘denoms’ have their own 'traditions' that they 'cling to' … but most of the individual congregants never even realise that they follow and believe traditions handed down, that ‘evolved’ in ‘the church’, and always go beyond, and always conflict with, and always go against, what “is written”.

That is why, and how, ‘The Paschal Mystery' since its inception has been 'blasphemous idolatry'— it is a “tradition of men” 'clung to' by ‘the church’, that evolved and has been handed down in ‘the church’ that falsely claims Jesus Himself founded it, that goes beyond, and conflicts with, and goes against, what “is written”.

Very simple and clear.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How the Paschal Mystery' is 'blasphemous idolatry', explained:

Any tradition, ‘handed down’, or which evolved in ‘the church’ that boasts Jesus Himself founded it, goes beyond what is written and will always conflict and go against what “is written”. Or Christ would be a liar as would the Holy Spirit. Because that ‘Church’ so-called, is a wicked 'organism' that has grown and evolved over the years, having gone further and further against the Word of God as “is written” as well as, as is come in Jesus Christ.

Catholics like all ‘denoms’ have their own 'traditions' that they 'cling to' … but most of the individual congregants never even realise that they follow and believe traditions handed down, that ‘evolved’ in ‘the church’, and always go beyond, and always conflict with, and always go against, what “is written”.

That is why, and how, ‘The Paschal Mystery' since its inception has been 'blasphemous idolatry'— it is a “tradition of men” 'clung to' by ‘the church’, that evolved and has been handed down in ‘the church’ that falsely claims Jesus Himself founded it, that goes beyond, and conflicts with, and goes against, what “is written”.

Very simple and clear.

Yes well, the original OP was about Ash Wednesday & its definition & its relevance today....so who better to address these questions but our panel of practicing RC's (and so I thank you all for your cooperation).

As for myself as a practicing Christian & Baptist, my faith is antithetical to that of the RC posture which is evident from my posts....however I do not wish to throw rocks....so again thank you for explaining your beliefs.

 

[Walter]

Yes well, the original OP was about Ash Wednesday & its definition & its relevance today....so who better to address these questions but our panel of practicing RC's (and so I thank you all for your cooperation).

As for myself as a practicing Christian & Baptist, my faith is antithetical to that of the RC posture which is evident from my posts....however I do not wish to throw rocks....so again thank you for explaining your beliefs.

Thank you for giving us a glimpse into your own Catholic background. I am in complete agreement with TS, the Catholic Church in the U.S. (until recent years) worst problems to have plagued them is the lack of decent catechesis. And that Catholic problem also has its effects in the worlds of both EO and protestantism. So in many ways Catholics have to blame themselves before they can even get around to blaming others for not understanding them.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes well, the original OP was about Ash Wednesday & its definition & its relevance today.....

And that , I have also shown very simple and clearly, that 'tradition' – RC tradition – has reduced Jesus' passover-BONE-day to, part, ashes thrown to the winds of the Galilean deserts—'legalism'; and part, to the few minutes before sundown on Jesus' "very first day they killed the passover".

Which clearly and very simple but EXACTLY, explains the origin, definition & relevance today of 'Ash Wednesday'—a complete monstrosity of the 'vain imaginations' and inventions of anti-Christ.

 

[Walter]

And that , I have also shown very simple and clearly, that 'tradition' – RC tradition – has reduced Jesus' passover-BONE-day to, part, ashes thrown to the winds of the Galilean deserts—'legalism'; and part, to the few minutes before sundown on Jesus' "very first day they killed the passover".
Which clearly and very simple but EXACTLY, explains the origin, definition & relevance today of 'Ash Wednesday'—a complete monstrosity of the 'vain imaginations' and inventions of anti-Christ.

This is nonsense, where in the world are you getting your information? Please don't take this as a personal slight. I just think you are mis-informed. Originally, this practice was reserved for the Order of Penitents. These people were sinners who had been prescribed a public penance for their sins. They were required to stand outside the Church before Mass. The priest would hear their confessions, clothe them in sack cloth and sprinkle ashes on their heads.

After this ceremony, everyone would fall prostrate and recite the seven Penitential Psalms (6,31,37,50,101,129,142). Then all would walk in procession through the streets with the penitents walking barefoot at the back.

BTW, this only started to be done in public AFTER the persecutions of Christians eased. Before that it was done in secret for obvious reasons.

Perhaps the best known example of repentance in the Old Testament also involves sackcloth and ashes. When the prophet Jonah finally obeyed God's command and preached in the great city of Nineveh, his preaching was amazingly effective. Word of his message was carried to the king of Nineveh. "When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in the ashes" (Jon 3:6).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And that , I have also shown very simple and clearly, that 'tradition' – RC tradition – has reduced Jesus' passover-BONE-day to, part, ashes thrown to the winds of the Galilean deserts—'legalism'; and part, to the few minutes before sundown on Jesus' "very first day they killed the passover".

Which clearly and very simple but EXACTLY, explains the origin, definition & relevance today of 'Ash Wednesday'—a complete monstrosity of the 'vain imaginations' and inventions of anti-Christ.

You are unfortunately doing a Dan Brown here. Although there is biblical significance for using ashes the origin can be traced to Tertullian's De Poenitentia in 160-220 stating that the penitent man must use ashes. Later Eusebius 260-340, relates and instance in his History where an apostate named Natalis came to Pope Zephyrinus clothed in ashes begging forgiveness. In the a sixth century Order (Order of Penitents) which took in gravely sick people in Spain (close to death) and as a blessing and reminder of judgment sprinkled ashes on these people using ashes symbolising their penitent attitude in coming to Christ. Then we see development of the use of ashes with catachumins coming into the church by repentance so that in 960 we see the first liturgical use of ashes (men and priest had ashes sprinkled on them and women had crosses drawn on their heads) and by the late 1,000's AD it was so comon to use Ashes on the Wednesday before Lent that Urban II called for a general use of ashes on that day. By the 1200's they started using Palm branches from the previous Lent. FYI.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You are unfortunately doing a Dan Brown here. Although there is biblical significance for using ashes the origin can be traced to Tertullian's De Poenitentia in 160-220 stating that the penitent man must use ashes. Later Eusebius 260-340, relates and instance in his History where an apostate named Natalis came to Pope Zephyrinus clothed in ashes begging forgiveness. In the a sixth century Order (Order of Penitents) which took in gravely sick people in Spain (close to death) and as a blessing and reminder of judgment sprinkled ashes on these people using ashes symbolising their penitent attitude in coming to Christ. Then we see development of the use of ashes with catachumins coming into the church by repentance so that in 960 we see the first liturgical use of ashes (men and priest had ashes sprinkled on them and women had crosses drawn on their heads) and by the late 1,000's AD it was so comon to use Ashes on the Wednesday before Lent that Urban II called for a general use of ashes on that day. By the 1200's they started using Palm branches from the previous Lent. FYI.

Thanks for the condensed history.

Please tell me what a 'Dan Brown' is?

 

[Alcott]

Ash Wednesday

Is that the day we get to smoke? I may get some Dutch Master panatellas.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ash Wednesday

Is that the day we get to smoke? I may get some Dutch Master panatellas.

No your mistaking it for As_ Wednesday, cause you'd have to be an As_ to smoke that cheap crud unless your using them to shoot off fireworks.....then you get a pass!:smilewinkgrin: