37818
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Our infinitly good God created finite good. Evil needs [finite] good in order to exist.
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- Thread starter agedman
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I did not suggest...God wanted it to happen, yet it was ordained to come to pass.
There was sexual sin involved in bringing the godly line to pass.
God is never the cause or author of sin.
How can there be any action that comes to pass,that was not ordained to come to pass?
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
What is the difference between saying God ordained it to happen vs. God caused it to happen? If God ordained something to happen, then God is the cause of it. That would make God responsible for the fall in the Garden. It would make God responsible for Adam's disobedience. It would make God responsible for every sin ever committed. That is simply not tenable and is not biblical.
The difference is satan and fallen men are fully responsible for their sinful actions...
Jesus did not force Judas to commit his betrayal.
It was not like Judas did not want to do it, and God sent Angel's to force him to sin
That is the difference. God is never the author of sine
Nothing that comes to pass can come to pass unless it is ordained by God. Anything less is what is not biblical.
A sparrow does not die and fall to the ground without the Father
These two statements are mutually exclusive.
It's impossible to have a rational discussion with these conditions.
Itl, How can there be an random event, a random molecule outside of God's control.
We start with God cannot be the author of sin, and I ask you to comment on rev6:11.
God tells them to wait until their brothers are put to death as they were.
He knew it was going to happen. It was known and ordained to come to pass.
You start with the statement, "God cannot be the author of sin" and then you say "nothing can happen unless God ordains it to happen."
Well, sin happened.
So you have a contradiction in your statements from the get-go.
God did not sin.
God is not the author of sin.
Sinners and fallen Angel's sin.
God does not make them sin.
Sinners sin because they are bound by a fallen nature
God cannot be blamed for sin.
You did not answer rev.6::11 or Acts2:23
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
It is internally inconsistent to say that God ordains evil actions, but that God is not the cause. You cannot say that everything happens because God ordains (appoints) something to happen, but is not responsible for what he appoints to actually happen. Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.
You said, "Nothing can happen unless God ordains it"
You also said, "Sinners and fallen Angels sin."
How do you reconcile those two statements?
Get ready for #5 or #6 on my list of poor arguments the Calvinist's use to be employed.
Not at all. When Satan was told what he could do to Job with the restriction he could not take Jobs life...Satan did what he wanted to do...
Do you blame God? I do not.
37818
Well-Known Member
It is a question of how it is ordained. Is God the author of sin?
Your list of neccessary consequences is sometimes exactly what is taking place.
Having no answer scripturally, the first line of rebuttal is logic, then philosophy, then deflection and retreat.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
That is a diversion from what we were talking about. We were not talking about what God allows to happen, but what God ordains to occur.
Did God ordain (appoint) the sin of Adam? Did appoint Adam to disobey?
Does God ordain child molestation, rape, spousal abuse, homosexual activity? You said that NOTHING comes to pass unless God ordains it, even the acts of wicked men. So does God ordain sexual immorality, murder, idolatry?
Looks like you're in deflection and retreat mode.
You said, "Nothing can happen unless God ordains it"
You also said, "Sinners and fallen Angels sin."
How do you reconcile those two statements?
Here we often retreat in philosophical and logical arguments, back and forth. What saith the scriptures? If we take the Scriptures as written, we find that God does get the "credit" for things that were done, whether it be evil/sin or evil/calamity.
- Joseph: But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. (Genesis 50:20)
- Job: and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:21-22) Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. (Job 2:10)
- Micaiah: Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee. (2 Chronicles 18:21-22)
- Peter: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23)
Itl,
Both are true. No need to reconcile ftiends.
You are using the word appoint.
I am speaking of whatsoever comes to pass being ordained.
Who said God appointed anyone to sin?
All manner of sin that comes to pass was indeed ordained to come to pass.
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