Ask in Sunday School

[InTheLight]

All manner of sin that comes to pass was indeed ordained to come to pass.

What is your definition of "ordained"?

 

[GoodTidings]

You are using the word appoint.
I am speaking of whatsoever comes to pass being ordained.
Who said God appointed anyone to sin?
All manner of sin that comes to pass was indeed ordained to come to pass.

The word "ordain" means, "to appoint." They are synonymous terms. They mean the same thing. Other synonyms would be, "order," "prescribe," "decree."

You said that nothing happens, nothing comes to pass unless it is ordained by God. That makes God the cause because He ordained something to happen, to occur. That's the obvious meaning behind "ordain."

So if God ordained a woman to be raped, He is responsible for it because His sovereign decree made it happen. That is why it is untenable, theologically to say that nothing happens unless God ordains it. Your view is not sound doctrine, but false, unbiblical doctrine and is an assault on God's character.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word "ordain" means, "to appoint." They are synonymous terms. They mean the same thing. Other synonyms would be, "order," "prescribe," "decree."

You said that nothing happens, nothing comes to pass unless it is ordained by God. That makes God the cause because He ordained something to happen, to occur. That's the obvious meaning behind "ordain."

So if God ordained a woman to be raped, He is responsible for it because His sovereign decree made it happen. That is why it is untenable, theologically to say that nothing happens unless God ordains it. Your view is not sound doctrine, but false, unbiblical doctrine and is an assault on God's character.

Acts2:23 is not unbiblical doctrine or an assault on God’s character.
The sin of those who did this sin was not caused by God.
I am not of the blame God for man's sin crowd.
Sin exists and does not exist outside of God's control..
Using the reasoning of some on here,God would be blamed for sin because He is the creator of all things.
No...I will stick with the Biblical revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Chapter 3 - God's Decree

 

[atpollard]

It is internally inconsistent to say that God ordains evil actions, but that God is not the cause. You cannot say that everything happens because God ordains (appoints) something to happen, but is not responsible for what he appoints to actually happen. Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.

Get ready for #5 or #6 on my list of poor arguments the Calvinist's use to be employed.

I don't want you to have to settle for a #5 (insult) or #6 (mystery), so I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering this question.

No letter leaves the office without my first reading it over. If I do not approve the letter, then the letter is not sent. That could reasonable be interpreted as I have 'ordained' that any letter that gets mailed may and will be mailed. If I objected to the letter, it would not have been mailed. That does not make me the author of all of the letters that leave the office.

This is played out between God and Satan in Job. Did God kill Job's children and wipe out his wealth? Not directly, no. Satan did the evil actions against Job. However, Satan was not able to do anything that God had not first "ordained". God did not MAKE Satan harm Job. Satan did what Satan wanted to do. Satan followed his own nature. God set the boundaries on how far Satan was permitted to follow the desires of his heart.

Joseph is a similar story. Men acted according to their own sinful desires and God knew the hearts of people and allowed their free actions to advance the plan of God. Man's free will plays right into God's ordained plan.

That is why He gets to be God and we do not.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word "ordain" means, "to appoint." They are synonymous terms. They mean the same thing. Other synonyms would be, "order," "prescribe," "decree."

You said that nothing happens, nothing comes to pass unless it is ordained by God. That makes God the cause because He ordained something to happen, to occur. That's the obvious meaning behind "ordain."

So if God ordained a woman to be raped, He is responsible for it because His sovereign decree made it happen. That is why it is untenable, theologically to say that nothing happens unless God ordains it. Your view is not sound doctrine, but false, unbiblical doctrine and is an assault on God's character.

Maybe this will help you GT,
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

 

[37818]

All manner of sin that comes to pass was indeed ordained to come to pass.

So how does that view not make God the author of sin?

 

[Iconoclast]

So how does that view not make God the author of sin?

Because He does not sin.
Because He never commands anyone to Sin
Chapter 3 - God's Decree
I have offered two links to help.
These persons are much wiser and gifted than I am.
Read the links carefully.

 

[GoodTidings]

I don't want you to have to settle for a #5 (insult) or #6 (mystery), so I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering this question.

No letter leaves the office without my first reading it over. If I do not approve the letter, then the letter is not sent. That could reasonable be interpreted as I have 'ordained' that any letter that gets mailed may and will be mailed. If I objected to the letter, it would not have been mailed. That does not make me the author of all of the letters that leave the office.

This is played out between God and Satan in Job. Did God kill Job's children and wipe out his wealth? Not directly, no. Satan did the evil actions against Job. However, Satan was not able to do anything that God had not first "ordained". God did not MAKE Satan harm Job. Satan did what Satan wanted to do. Satan followed his own nature. God set the boundaries on how far Satan was permitted to follow the desires of his heart.

Joseph is a similar story. Men acted according to their own sinful desires and God knew the hearts of people and allowed their free actions to advance the plan of God. Man's free will plays right into God's ordained plan.

That is why He gets to be God and we do not.

Not talking about Job. Did God ordain that Adam sin in the Garden? Does God ordain sexual immorality or criminal activity?

 

[GoodTidings]

Because He does not sin.
Because He never commands anyone to Sin
Chapter 3 - God's Decree
I have offered two links to help.
These persons are much wiser and gifted than I am.
Read the links carefully.

But if God ordains something to happen, if nothing happens that God does not ordain (appoint, decree), then God is the direct cause of any act, sinful or not, since it was His will to ordain it to happen. You cannot escape that unassailable logic.

 

[GoodTidings]

Maybe this will help you GT,
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

I don't have time to sit and read 13 pages. The fact remains that your view of God isn't biblical. You claim that God ordains every act, something the Bible does not say. The Bible never presents God's sovereignty as direct cause of every action taken by every person.

Right off the bat, you hold to an unbiblical position. God allows things to happen against His will. He allows people to go to Hell, though that is not His will for anyone. God allows people to be immoral and criminal. But God doesn't "ordain" them to be such and you have no biblical basis for saying such.

 

[Iconoclast]

But if God ordains something to happen, if nothing happens that God does not ordain (appoint, decree), then God is the direct cause of any act, sinful or not, since it was His will to ordain it to happen. You cannot escape that unassailable logic.

Gt,
If God purposes anything to happen, it will happen isa46:9-11. There us no if....
Gt...I do not do much in terms of philosophy.
You have to check out my friend Benjamin for philosophical speculation.
The links I offered are some of the best I know of

 

[InTheLight]

I don't want you to have to settle for a #5 (insult) or #6 (mystery), so I hope you don't mind if I take a shot at answering this question.

No letter leaves the office without my first reading it over. If I do not approve the letter, then the letter is not sent. That could reasonable be interpreted as I have 'ordained' that any letter that gets mailed may and will be mailed. If I objected to the letter, it would not have been mailed. That does not make me the author of all of the letters that leave the office.

.

In your analogy, who built the postal system? Who created the writing instruments? Who created the trees the paper is made from?

My point is you are acting merely as a censor in your role with the office mail. This is a minor bit part in the entire scheme of postal deliveries.

Furthermore, ordain does not mean "examine it and let it happen".

 

[GoodTidings]

Gt,
If God purposes anything to happen, it will happen isa46:9-11.

That is not in dispute. And as said before, that is a distraction to the issue at hand.

Gt...I do not do much in terms of philosophy.

And I am not operating in the realm of philosophy.

The links I offered are some of the best I know of

This isn't really hard. You are trying to use the word "ordain" in a manner that is inconsistent with what it means. You are trying to dodge the obvious problem of claiming that EVERY action is ordained by God as understood by the plain meaning of the word, "ordain."

You cannot make the case that God ordains criminal activity or sin. So why not just admit that you overstated the fact that ever act is ordained by God? Why not just admit that God doesn't ordain sinful activity? Wouldn't that be easier than trying to twist and turn and perform theological gymnastics that simply don't line up with the Bible?​

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't have time to sit and read 13 pages. The fact remains that your view of God isn't biblical. You claim that God ordains every act, something the Bible does not say. The Bible never presents God's sovereignty as direct cause of every action taken by every person.

Right off the bat, you hold to an unbiblical position. God allows things to happen against His will. He allows people to go to Hell, though that is not His will for anyone. God allows people to be immoral and criminal. But God doesn't "ordain" them to be such and you have no biblical basis for saying such.

Friend, this is an open forum to interact on
If you do not have time to read 13 pages, I cannot be of any help to you.
I expressed what I know to be biblical . Thanks for your responses.

 

[Iconoclast]

That is not in dispute. And as said before, that is a distraction to the issue at hand.

And I am not operating in the realm of philosophy.



This isn't really hard. You are trying to use the word "ordain" in a manner that is inconsistent with what it means. You are trying to dodge the obvious problem of claiming that EVERY action is ordained by God as understood by the plain meaning of the word, "ordain."

You cannot make the case that God ordains criminal activity or sin. So why not just admit that you overstated the fact that ever act is ordained by God? Why not just admit that God doesn't ordain sinful activity? Wouldn't that be easier than trying to twist and turn and perform theological gymnastics that simply don't line up with the Bible?​

If time permits, show how the link I offered is not biblical as it is loaded with the scriptures on this topic. Take your time, think it out.

 

[InTheLight]

This isn't really hard. You are trying to use the word "ordain" in a manner that is inconsistent with what it means. You are trying to dodge the obvious problem of claiming that EVERY action is ordained by God as understood by the plain meaning of the word, "ordain." ​

A variation on poor Calvinist argument #1: "That word means something else."

 

[37818]

Because He does not sin.
Because He never commands anyone to Sin
Chapter 3 - God's Decree
I have offered two links to help.
These persons are much wiser and gifted than I am.
Read the links carefully.

We disagree. What God foreknows is not what God decrees, ordained or caused to be. This is at the very least a problem of words and what they mean.

 

[GoodTidings]

If time permits, show how the link I offered is not biblical as it is loaded with the scriptures on this topic. Take your time, think it out.

I am not talking about your link. I am talking about YOUR attempt to navigate your claim that God ordains everything that happens, while trying not to admit that your statement would blame God for sinful acts that he allegedly ordains.

You cannot say that God ordains every action, but that God is not responsible for the occurrence of the sinful acts that He ordains to occur. Your statement is internally inconsistent and unbiblical. It is not a sustainable or defensible position to hold.

 

[GoodTidings]

Friend, this is an open forum to interact on
If you do not have time to read 13 pages, I cannot be of any help to you.
I expressed what I know to be biblical . Thanks for your responses.

Sorry, but I am not in need of your help. You do not instruct me. I am not in need of your counsel.

The problem here is your inability to defend your self-contradictory position. Your position is anything but biblical. It is an assault on God's character.