We can leave it here then. Perhaps at another time it can be revisited. Thanks for your responses
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- Thread starter agedman
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Yes. Some of these topics take time and study to work through.
Biblical foreknowledge is of persons, not actions or events.
Some are suggesting things happen randomly outside of God's control.
Some are suggesting in one way or another God is the author of sin???
This is a theological third rail. God is pure and Holy. God does not sin, God does not make anyone sin
Any attempt in this direction is wrong, completely wrong and not to be entertained..
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Did you read what I wrote?
Of course God ordained Adam’s sin in the garden, in exactly the same way that God ordained the evil that befell Job and the sin of Joseph’s brothers in selling him into slavery. Not only that, but just as Joseph’s brothers meant their actions for evil (and Adam meant his disobedience for evil), God meant it for good!
Which is better, being an obedient servant of God or being a child of God? Walking and talking with God or being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and having God in you even as you are in Christ?
Does God have the power to stop evil? Yes.
Does God stop all evil? No.
Does God allow evil to happen? Yes.
Apparently, God has some reason for not preventing evil things from happening when he can, so God is at least passively condoning the evil actions (just as he did with Adam and Job and Joseph). Our choice, then, is to either trust that “all things work together for good” as God promised, or to doubt either the ability or veracity of God.
I choose to trust God.
Do whatever seems best to you.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Nor does it mean to do everything with your own two hands.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
Actually the situation with Job and Joseph speak to God's ability to use things that happen to us for our benefit. You cannot realistically compare those two situations to Adam's sin in the Garden. God did not ordain Joseph or Job to sin, so those stories don't reveal any parallel to the situation in the Garden. Did God actually ordain Adam to disobey Him? That would make no sense. God doesn't compromise His holiness in that way. God does not command us to do or not do something and then ordain that we sin against Him. That is not biblical and there is NO biblical defense for such a thing.
That has nothing to do with anything from my previous post.
That is not in dispute.
No, God is not condoning evil, passively or otherwise. To suggest that He does is an offense to His holiness and an assault on His character.
I choose trust him too. I choose not to insult Him and bring reproach upon Him as you have done.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
And yet that is exactly what you have advocated for in your posts by saying that God ordains people to sin.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
God ordained Satan to sin in the story of Job. For Job’s ultimate good and for God’s ultimate glory ... EXACTLY like placing Satan and a forbidden tree in the Garden with Adam.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Sure, but that was just a Tit for Tat #4.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[Gen 50:20 NASB] 20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
It didn’t just happen, God meant it for good (ordained).
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No, God allowed Satan to sin. God did not decree Satan to sin.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No, God used it. It doesn't say that God ordained it. God knew it would happen and He used that situation for His glory. God can use adversity and the attacks of the enemy for His glory. It doesn't mean that He ordained or decreed those things to happen.
1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen
X = Evil
Don't feel bad Icon, the guys on those links couldn't disprove a simple logical truth either.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
It is truthfully recorded, yes. But whether or not the vision refers to an actual event that happened in Heaven is another thing. God seeking the counsel of angels isn't in keeping with the character of a God who is sovereign and all-knowing.
In addition, it is language that conveys the idea that God had basically given Ahab over to what he wanted. Ahab preferred the lying prophets. He wanted to be guided by the false prophets and God simply gave him over to be guided by them to his demise. That is essentially what the story is communicating to us.
Are you suggesting that God who knows the end from the beginning, is only a spectator who waits to see what happens and then just tries to adjust and use man made events in the best way he can?
I knew I could count on you Ben lol,thanks1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen
X = Evil
Don't feel bad Icon, the guys on those links couldn't disprove a simple logical truth either.
GoodTidings
Well-Known Member
No, I am saying that God knows what will happen and He already has a plan in place ahead of time to use each adversity and non-adversity for his glory. God does not fore ordain every action or event and there is nothing in the Bible that says so.
Unlike you, I am not saying that God ordains little children to be molested and raped. I have a far better, biblically consistent view of God that doesn't make God responsible for the sins people commit.
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