Ask in Sunday School

[Iconoclast]

I remember when I first joined BB and encountered the radical Calvinist faction. I innocently asked if God controlled what I ate for lunch each day and was told, that yes, he does. Even if I ended up eating something different than what I originally planned, it was really God deciding in eternity past what I would be eating that day!
I believe that it was you and I having that very discussion. I am not sure if that was the wording of it.
Could you search for that post, ITL?


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[InTheLight]

I remember when I first joined BB and encountered the radical Calvinist faction. I innocently asked if God controlled what I ate for lunch each day and was told, that yes, he does. Even if I ended up eating something different than what I originally planned, it was really God deciding in eternity past what I would be eating that day!

I believe that it was you and I having that very discussion. I am not sure if that was the wording of it.
Could you search for that post, ITL?

Icon, turns out it was you that answered.

From March 2012:

A Determinist Question

...and after having reviewed that thread, not much has changed around here in seven years.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, turns out it was you that answered.

From March 2012:

A Determinist Question

...and after having reviewed that thread, not much has changed around here in seven years.

Itl, thanks for looking up that thread for me. You are more skilled on the computer than I am.
I am enjoying re-reading the thread now.
I stand by what I posted.
One change from then to now, is at least one poster who constantly disagreed with me, studied himself into the position!
Thanks again ITL.

 

[rlvaughn]

Is the Bible accurate and trustworthy when it says the Lord appointed (tsavah, commanded, ordered, ordained) the defeat of the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the Lord might bring evil upon Absalom? 2 Samuel 17:14

 

[Iconoclast]

GoodTidings,

No it doesn't mean they were ordained. You assume that every action is ordained by God, but the Bible does not say that. And so far you have not quoted ONE Scripture that proves every act is ordained by God.

Amos4:
6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.

Looks like God was in control of all these things, not "mother nature"

it doesn't make Him the author of sin,

I agree with this one statement.

but if He ordained a sin to occur, He appointed that sin to happen. In fact, your argument is self-defeating. According to you, God decrees a sin to occur, but that doesn't make him responsible for it occurring. That is a ridiculous, self-defeating argument that no intelligent, thinking person can accept.

The cross was not a self-defeating argument. It was ordained to come to pass;


Acts 2:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The wicked sinned here and yet it was ordained by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.

I don't read online novels,

If you were interested in seeking truth you might want to re-visit your policy.

and if you are too lazy to make the argument yourself,

I am not.lazy at all. It is not easy to state my position when I am driving an 18 wheeler 11 hours a day
lazy might be not reading 13 pages of scripture and teaching written by a man who has forgotten more scripture than you will ever know.

then it only shows the weakness of your position. I can reason out my own line of argumentation, I don't hide behind links and articles or rely on others to do my thinking for me.

The apostle Paul quoted from Isaiah 17x in romans 9-15...was he hiding behind Him?
Agedman addressed this very well earlier on this thread.

psalm 148;
8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

 

[rlvaughn]

It is truthfully recorded, yes. But whether or not the vision refers to an actual event that happened in Heaven is another thing. God seeking the counsel of angels isn't in keeping with the character of a God who is sovereign and all-knowing.

The story may be a vision or a parable, but it accurately expresses that the Lord put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets or else is not accurate.

In addition, it is language that conveys the idea that God had basically given Ahab over to what he wanted.

Is or is not God giving someone over to what he wants a form of control?

Yes. All that verse says is that God, due to their impenitence had already decided to judge them for their sin. They experienced a judicial hardening of their hearts, much the way Pharaoh did. That led to their final judgment at the hand of the Lord.

Is or is not judicial hardening a form of control? Can someone who is judicially hardened change his or her mind?

 

[GoodTidings]

The story may be a vision or a parable, but it accurately expresses that the Lord put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets or else is not accurate.
Is or is not God giving someone over to what he wants a form of control?
Is or is not judicial hardening a form of control? Can someone who is judicially hardened change his or her mind?

The point I was making is that it is not example of God ordaining sin. As for control, I never said that God was not in control. I am simply making the point that God's sovereignty is not damaged in any by any free will choice made by us. And that it cannot be said from the Bible that every action is ordained or decreed by God to occur.

 

[rlvaughn]

...it cannot be said from the Bible that every action is ordained or decreed by God to occur.

Do you believe that any actions are ordained or decreed by God to occur?

 

[GoodTidings]

Do you believe that any actions are ordained or decreed by God to occur?

Sure. The ones claims to have ordained and decreed. There is no biblical evidence that every action or event is decreed by God to occur.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sure. The ones claims to have ordained and decreed. There is no biblical evidence that every action or event is decreed by God to occur.

So now you are claiming that unless it is specifically spelled out....God is "taking a break" like the god of the deists, he winds the clock and let's it run by itself?
no response to post 125?

 

[GoodTidings]

So now you are claiming that unless it is specifically spelled out....God is "taking a break" like the god of the deists, he winds the clock and let's it run by itself?
no response to post 125?

No, what I am saying is that there are set things, in the future, which God has specifically told us He has ordained will happen. That doesn't mean that God is a passive observer in human affairs. It doesn't mean that God isn't using events in our lives, whether they are good or bad, to further His will for our lives. It simply means that God does not dictate or ordain everything single action that occurs. The Bible makes no such claims about God.

I will look at post 125

 

[GoodTidings]

GoodTidings,

Looks like God was in control of all these things, not "mother nature"

Who said that God is not in control of nature? We are not talking about natural events. The discussion has been about whether or not God ordains every action we make. Does God ordain every choice we make, even if that choice is sinful?

The cross was not a self-defeating argument. It was ordained to come to pass;

The wicked sinned here and yet it was ordained by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.

Jesus's death on the cross was ordained by God. The treachery of the Jews and the Romans was not ordained, but permitted. God did not cause them to do what they did, but allowed them to as they did. He did not cause them to sin.

I am not.lazy at all. It is not easy to state my position when I am driving an 18 wheeler 11 hours a day
lazy might be not reading 13 pages of scripture and teaching written by a man who has forgotten more scripture than you will ever know.

No matter how busy I am, I don't need to use long articles as a crutch. I can actually make my own arguments, just fine. The longer something is, less it gets read. Most people don't read really long posts online. I scanned it briefly and it isn't anything I haven't heard before.

The apostle Paul quoted from Isaiah 17x in romans 9-15...was he hiding behind Him?

I don't really see what that has to do with anything. What do you mean by "hiding behind him?"

 

[Iconoclast]

No, what I am saying is that there are set things, in the future, which God has specifically told us He has ordained will happen. That doesn't mean that God is a passive observer in human affairs. It doesn't mean that God isn't using events in our lives, whether they are good or bad, to further His will for our lives. It simply means that God does not dictate or ordain everything single action that occurs. The Bible makes no such claims about God.

I will look at post 125

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.prov16:
prov21:
Proverbs 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[Iconoclast]

GoodTidings

Who said that God is not in control of nature? We are not talking about natural events.

God is in control of all things. why are you trying to fragment that fact. God causes events that affect people, ..in Amos, yet you have not returned to me.

The discussion has been about whether or not God ordains every action we make. Does God ordain every choice we make, even if that choice is sinful?

We do what we do yes. If it happens...it was ordained to come to pass...we do it, it comes to pass, it was ordained to come to pass.
God can intervene whenever He wants to.
gen20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Jesus's death on the cross was ordained by God. The treachery of the Jews and the Romans was not ordained,

Sure it was:
Acts223 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Does this look only like God allowed it? the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God

God did not cause them to do what they did, but allowed them to as they did.

God does not cause anyone to sin...however this event was ordained to come to pass. Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

He did not cause them to sin.

Of course not. God is never the author of sin. All of the Reformed confessions are very clear on this.

No matter how busy I am, I don't need to use long articles as a crutch.

I do not need a crutch to deal with you my friend. You offer no challenge so far on any point.
Any link I post, you will not begin to be able to touch or refute, I am certain of that. So get over yourself and examine the material.

I can actually make my own arguments, just fine.

You might think that however, we are reading what you post and do not see the evidence. I see you trying to belittle me, which is fine of course, but not really answering anything of substance.

The longer something is, less it gets read. Most people don't read really long posts online. I scanned it briefly and it isn't anything I haven't heard before.

If someone wants the truth , they will study it. Most people who do not read others contribute shared ignorance with everyone.

I don't really see what that has to do with anything. What do you mean by "hiding behind him?"

You accused me of hiding behind that fine article. I showed you how the Holy Spirit had Paul quote Isaiah over 17 times. he quoted that which helped get to truth.

I do not think you can respond to the article and correct it at all. The pastor who wrote the article is much more intelligent and gifted than I am. I do not see you getting past me, so your chances of reading and offering anything of substance to that link are slim to none, but you are welcome to try.

 

[GoodTidings]

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.prov16:
prov21:
Proverbs 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

We can all look back and see the Lord's direction in our lives. We can't always see it in the moment, but we can look back over the years at where we used to be and where we are now and we can trace the hand of the Lord in our lives.

That does NOT mean that every action taken was because the Lord ordained that act to occur, particularly if that action was sinful. It means that God's plans are not thwarted by our own free will decisions. Our free will is not at all in conflict with God's sovereignty.

 

[GoodTidings]

GoodTidings


God is in control of all things. why are you trying to fragment that fact. God causes events that affect people, ..in Amos, yet you have not returned to me.

God is in control of all things, but that control doesn't mean that every action a person takes is God-ordained. God has purposes and plans in our world and every action. Yes, God causes events that effect people, but again, that is not what is at issue. Does God cause people to sin?

We do what we do yes. If it happens...it was ordained to come to pass...we do it, it comes to pass, it was ordained to come to pass.

Does God ordain people to have other gods before Him?
Does God ordain people to take His Name in vain?
Does God ordain people worship graven images?
Does God ordain people to forsake worshiping Him on the Lord's day?
Does God ordain people to dishonor their parents?
Does God ordain people to murder, bear false witness, steal, commit adultery and covet their neighbor's things?

Sure it was:
Acts223 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Does this look only like God allowed it? the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God

God did not ordain their wicked acts. God doesn't ordain sin. God allowed them to be treacherous. God can ordain the death of Jesus on the cross, without ordaining the sins that were associated with that act.

It is similar to Pharaoh. Pharaoh could have relented and obeyed the Lord any time he wanted to. God was not forcing the Pharaoh to be rebellious. But Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and the plagues had the effect of hardening his heart further. God knew the heart of Pharaoh and knew that His plagues would harden and eventually break Pharaoh, but God did not force the Pharaoh to do anything that he wasn't already predisposed to do.

If someone wants the truth , they will study it. Most people who do not read others contribute shared ignorance with everyone.

I don't accept Calvinism to be "the truth." I follow Jesus, not John Calvin. The five points of Calvinism are false teaching. I have been on message boards a long time and I never read long articles. If you want to summarize the article and make succinct points and quote the parts you want me to respond, to that's fine. But I am not going to read a long article and try to guess at what you want me to respond to.

You accused me of hiding behind that fine article. I showed you how the Holy Spirit had Paul quote Isaiah over 17 times. he quoted that which helped get to truth.

I do not think you can respond to the article and correct it at all. The pastor who wrote the article is much more intelligent and gifted than I am. I do not see you getting past me, so your chances of reading and offering anything of substance to that link are slim to none, but you are welcome to try.

I am not tryining to get past you or defeat you. You engaged me to start with. The difference between you and Paul is that Paul is quoting Isaiah. He does just say, "go read Isaiah" 'cause it's all in there." If you want to quote sections of the article and bring out the main points you want me to engage on, that's how debate works.

 

[rlvaughn]

It is similar to Pharaoh. Pharaoh could have relented and obeyed the Lord any time he wanted to.

Could he, even though God said:

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. Exodus 7:3-4

 

[GoodTidings]

Could he, even though God said:

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. Exodus 7:3-4

Yes and God did harden Pharaoh's harden heart.

But, it's like when you know a person really well to know how they will react or respond to an external stimulus. For example, a man knows that spending time on the golf course today will irritate his wife. He knows how she will react and can probably predict exactly what she is going to say.

God knew that the plagues would harden Pharaoh's heart, because God knew the Pharaoh's temperament and pride. He knew that His plagues would cause the Pharaoh to react a certain way. So, in that sense, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But God did not decree for Pharaoh to react as he did. He did not cause Pharaoh's hardness, directly.

The old analogy is that of a block of wax and a block of wet clay on a 100 degree day. The sun melts the wax, but hardens the clay. The sun does not purpose to cause either effect. It is the properties of the clay and the wax that determine their reaction to the heat of the sun. Some people hear the Gospel and repent; others hear the Gospel and scoff. Some are softened and others are hardened. But their response is not chosen or decreed by God.

 

[rlvaughn]

God said he hardened Pharaoh's heart, so I'll just go with that without inserting interesting explanations to satisfy some philosophical bent.

 

[GoodTidings]

God said he hardened Pharaoh's heart, so I'll just go with that without inserting interesting explanations to satisfy some philosophical bent.

But what God didn't do in the process of hardening Pharaoh, was force him to sin against Him. I'll stick with the Bible without trying to make the Bible fit the philosophical bent of John Calvin.