Ask in Sunday School

[agedman]

I have noticed in this thread that a great amount of Scriptures have been offered in the posts. That is very good.

However, I have also noticed in the thread that when Scriptures have been offered, the attention to them is ignored, passed over, or in some manner set aside.

For example, a few pages back, a couple posters listed numbers of passages in support of their view. Yet, in rebuttals that followed, the Scriptures weren’t the focus, but the philosophical views.

The question then arises about how to bring resolve?

Unless there is a focus upon Scripture irregardless of the perception from the precipice, then two can never agree.

The Scripture is as a man using semaphore from a ship. Unless removes focus from the ship and places it upon both the one doing semaphore and the flags, the message and communication breaks down. Even the communication is by blinking light, telegraph,... the message is the focus.

Here is a short list of agreements from the posters:

God knows it all - past, present, future.
God ordains for the believers all will work for their good even the evil done to them.
God ordains events and orchestrates people's (believers or not) attitudes, thinking, success, failure, ... that that which is ordained does indeed happen.

And there are other items the reader may desire to include on this list.
​

The sticking points devolve to one single area. Freedom of choice/will.

Here I will give opinion.
As Christ said, “Father’s know how to give good gifts to their children...”.

So that presents a certain freedom of choice from a selection of available items.

However, it does not present freedom of choice of ALL items available, nor even discernment of the best items. Rather circumstance and options ALWAYS limit the ability to choose.

Therefore, there is no true freedom of choice. The slave cannot choose what the master does not allow. The master cannot choose what is not available or allowed. And so forth. There is no true freedom of will and choice in the natural world.

How much less is there in such realms concerning the ability of ultimate authority controlling such thoughts and intents.

If the heart is evil, it cannot produce that which is good.

Therefore, only God, who is both pure and holy, has the authority to control everything of all creation.

As the prophet then points out, how dare the created question or blame the creator for what He has purposed to occur.

It matters not, God is, and nothing occurs outside His direct knowledge, control, and approval.

What humankind may certainly look upon as evil, Scriptures state God looks upon with approval.

Folks, do not blaspheme God by puffing up humankind as having some authority to question God and decide God isn’t in control over every aspect of that which He created.

 

[GoodTidings]

I have noticed in this thread that a great amount of Scriptures have been offered in the posts. That is very good.

However, I have also noticed in the thread that when Scriptures have been offered, the attention to them is ignored, passed over, or in some manner set aside.

For example, a few pages back, a couple posters listed numbers of passages in support of their view. Yet, in rebuttals that followed, the Scriptures weren’t the focus, but the philosophical views.

I don't think so. For my part, I don't pit the Bible against itself. I don't use Scripture, to refute Scripture. Rather, I deal with the interpretation and usage of Scripture offered by someone else. It is not enough to simply cite Scripture; rather, one must have sound exegesis in their presentation of it.

 

[GoodTidings]

Freedom of choice/will.

Folks, do not blaspheme God by puffing up humankind as having some authority to question God and decide God isn’t in control over every aspect of that which He created.

No one said that God is not in control of every aspect of creation. What I said, for my part, is that His control doesn't include ordaining people to commit wickedness. That is really all I am saying. I disputing what His control looks like, not whether He is in control or not.

It would help greatly if people actually responded to what is said, rather than reacting to what they think has been said.

 

[agedman]

But what God didn't do in the process of hardening Pharaoh, was force him to sin against Him. I'll stick with the Bible without trying to make the Bible fit the philosophical bent of John Calvin.

Was not pharaoh’s heart already hardened by God prior to Mosses return?

Pharaoh already was sinful. Pharaoh had already engaged Sin.

God didn’t have to “force” anything, but used what character pharaoh naturally had to accomplish what God stated to ?Mosses.

On another note, there are some who look to Calvin as the author of something they desire to refute.

Article three of the Remonstrance states:

• Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

Frankly, this view that it is all Calvin’s fault, is so very untrue.

There is NO freedom of choice and will that allows any human to choose outside of the confines of sin and death without that which gives life.

ALL sides recognized this central core of the Scriptures prior to the vain philosophers of the last two and a half centuries.

 

[agedman]

I don't think so. For my part, I don't pit the Bible against itself. I don't use Scripture, to refute Scripture. Rather, I deal with the interpretation and usage of Scripture offered by someone else. It is not enough to simply cite Scripture; rather, one must have sound exegesis in their presentation of it.

But, do you actually take the opportunity to use those Scriptures in context and refute the views others attach to those views?

Or, are your posts more about rejecting an uncomfortable philosophy in which you disagree, but cannot find Scripture of refutation?

For example, your use of pharaoh. God did not harden what was not already sin hardened, rather he confirmed that already hardened into further obstinacy.

He did the same in Christ’s ministry, where the Scripture indicates all Jews would have believed, but God temporarily blinded them that a people who new not God would be grafted into the believing.

Therefore, it is inescapable (as uncomfortable as it is) God literally condemned others, that you might be saved.

How then does God not determine all things, ordain all things, that He be glorified by all things?

 

[agedman]

No one said that God is not in control of every aspect of creation. What I said, for my part, is that His control doesn't include ordaining people to commit wickedness. That is really all I am saying. I disputing what His control looks like, not whether He is in control or not.

It would help greatly if people actually responded to what is said, rather than reacting to what they think has been said.

Actually, it does include “ordaining people to commit wickedness.”

This presentation was the same argument the ancient recorded as, “God cannot look upon evil.” It was a failed argument.

God ordained evil armies to come upon Israel and Judah to do all manner of evil.

God removed His Spirit from King Saul that an evil spirit drive him into evil acting out.

There are abundant Scriptures that show God ordained what humankind considers evil. Just in the accounts of Moses, Joshua, Judges, there are often times recorded of God ordaining what humankind would label “crimes against humanity.”

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:35 PM Pacific.

 

[rlvaughn]

But God did harden Pharaoh. He did so that Pharaoh would not let the people go until God had executed judgment on him and Egypt. Whatever else we add or subtract is somebody's "philosophical bent." We can't be biblical and deny he hardened him, which is what your statement about God only knowing that Pharaoh would harden himself seems to do.

 

[agedman]

But God did harden Pharaoh. He did so that Pharaoh would not let the people go until God had executed judgment on him and Egypt. Whatever else we add or subtract is somebody's "philosophical bent." We can't be biblical and deny he hardened him, which is what your statement about God only knowing that Pharaoh would harden himself seems to do.

This is also a principle found in many passages.

It is as John states of the condition of all who turn from the Scriptures by rejecting that light.

This is why “all have sinned.”

It is also why God’s Word preached and the work of the Holy Spirit saves the obstinately opposed such as Saul / Paul.

 

[GoodTidings]

But God did harden Pharaoh. He did so that Pharaoh would not let the people go until God had executed judgment on him and Egypt. Whatever else we add or subtract is somebody's "philosophical bent." We can't be biblical and deny he hardened him, which is what your statement about God only knowing that Pharaoh would harden himself seems to do.

No one is denying that God hardened Pharaoh. It helps if you don't keep trying to refute an argument that wasn't raised. But there are several places in Scripture where it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. (Ex. 8:15, 32; 9:7, 34).

I am not adding a philosophical bent. All I am saying is that God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not prevent the Pharaoh from changing his mind and repenting. God's hardening did not force the Pharaoh to do as He did. God simply understood Pharaoh's heart and how he would respond to the plagues and calls for Israel's release.

 

[GoodTidings]

Actually, it does include “ordaining people to commit wickedness.”

No, it doesn't.

God ordained evil armies to come upon Israel and Judah to do all manner of evil.

God removed His Spirit from King Saul that an evil spirit drive him into evil acting out.

Yes, God caused pagan nations to attack Israel as a form of His judgment upon Israel. That's not what we are talking about. That has been the problem with most of the responses I have seen in this thread. You guys keep coming up with examples of things that are not sins to prove that God ordains sin.

Find me a place where God ordained a man to commit adultery.
Find me a place where God ordained someone to worship idols.
Find me a place where God ordained someone to commit whoredom.
Find me a place where God ordained someone to be a false prophet..

There are abundant Scriptures that show God ordained what humankind considers evil.

In terms of sin, you have provided nothing. In terms non-moral "evil," yes and many examples can be shown. But not one place in the Bible do we find that God ordains sin.

And what the world terms as "crimes against humanity" isn't in terms of God's judgment and justice and most people schooled in theology know the difference.

 

[GoodTidings]

But, do you actually take the opportunity to use those Scriptures in context and refute the views others attach to those views?

Or, are your posts more about rejecting an uncomfortable philosophy in which you disagree, but cannot find Scripture of refutation?

I offer refutation of poorly interpreted Scripture. I do not try to make the Bible contradict itself.

For example, your use of pharaoh. God did not harden what was not already sin hardened, rather he confirmed that already hardened into further obstinacy.

Which is a restatement of what I already said, but in different words.

He did the same in Christ’s ministry, where the Scripture indicates all Jews would have believed, but God temporarily blinded them that a people who new not God would be grafted into the believing.

Therefore, it is inescapable (as uncomfortable as it is) God literally condemned others, that you might be saved.

How then does God not determine all things, ordain all things, that He be glorified by all things?

He did not force their unbelief. But He did cause a partial blindness to come upon them as to who Jesus was. But it was a partial blindess that did not stop them from believing in Him. That blindness included those who both His supporters and detractors. None of that means that God ordained the sin and treachory of His enemies.

 

[GoodTidings]

Was not pharaoh’s heart already hardened by God prior to Mosses return?

Pharaoh already was sinful. Pharaoh had already engaged Sin.

God didn’t have to “force” anything, but used what character pharaoh naturally had to accomplish what God stated to ?Mosses.

Which is what I was getting at.

There is NO freedom of choice and will that allows any human to choose outside of the confines of sin and death without that which gives life.

ALL sides recognized this central core of the Scriptures prior to the vain philosophers of the last two and a half centuries.

That is not in dispute.

 

[rlvaughn]

I am not adding a philosophical bent. All I am saying is that God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not prevent the Pharaoh from changing his mind and repenting.

Except that the Bible says that God said "I will harden his heart, that/in order that/so he shall not let the people go." Whether we attribute it to foreordination, judicial hardening, or merely foreknowledge, Pharaoh was not going to change his mind and let the people go until God was finished.

 

[agedman]

I offer refutation of poorly interpreted Scripture. I do not try to make the Bible contradict itself.


Which is a restatement of what I already said, but in different words.


He did not force their unbelief. But He did cause a partial blindness to come upon them as to who Jesus was. But it was a partial blindess that did not stop them from believing in Him. That blindness included those who both His supporters and detractors. None of that means that God ordained the sin and treachory of His enemies.

No “partial blindness” but that aside it is specific to 1) Those of Jewish heritage, 2) those NOT saved, 3) that such would continue until the times of the Gentiles were drawing to completeness.

That stated as Scripture fact, it is therefore true that God does indeed choose hell as the destiny for some, for He blinds them from the gospel.

Next is this matter of sin and treachery. Perhaps you forgot that God brought certain rebuke and punishment to the conquering armies for their excessiveness. But, He did ordain the enemies, used them, and ordained them to the purpose by warning through the prophets of the events, the aftermath, and the resolution.

It is obvious you desire a different view, but for all the bluster that you “...do not try to make the Bible contradict itself” you actually do that very thing in some posts.

Do not be alarmed, I once was as you are, and was blind to the inconsistency of that thinking, as well as blinded by that thinking.

When Joshua lead, the people were obliged by the command of God to obliterate the inhabitants. It is reported in Scripture God also directed the bees to go before the Israeli and drive the inhabitants out.

If we use your view, God was in fact engaged in what is modernly held as “crimes against humanity” when others such as Hitler do the same.

I am not comparing the two, I am posting that your view cannot escape that conclusion.

You wanted a more philosophical approach, and I have presented both that you (as I did) need to be aware.

 

[GoodTidings]

Except that the Bible says that God said "I will harden his heart, that/in order that/so he shall not let the people go." Whether we attribute it to foreordination, judicial hardening, or merely foreknowledge, Pharaoh was not going to change his mind and let the people go until God was finished.

And what is in dispute is what the hardening entailed. God did harden His heart. No one is disputing that. But God was not forcing Pharaoh to sin. The result of God's plagues was the hardening of Pharaoh's heart and the increase of Pharaoh's pride against God who he saw as his rival. The result of the hardening was that he would not let Israelites go. The text does not say that God was forcing Pharaoh's disobedience.

 

[rlvaughn]

But you are disputing that Pharaoh could have changed his mind at any time, which God said he would not.

 

[GoodTidings]

No “partial blindness” but that aside it is specific to 1) Those of Jewish heritage, 2) those NOT saved, 3) that such would continue until the times of the Gentiles were drawing to completeness.

Yes it was a partial blindness (Rom. 11:25)

That stated as Scripture fact, it is therefore true that God does indeed choose hell as the destiny for some, for He blinds them from the gospel.

No, God does not choose Hell as the destiny for some and you have NO Scripture to back up that nonsense.

Next is this matter of sin and treachery. Perhaps you forgot that God brought certain rebuke and punishment to the conquering armies for their excessiveness. But, He did ordain the enemies, used them, and ordained them to the purpose by warning through the prophets of the events, the aftermath, and the resolution.

Yes, he did punish them for their excessiveness which highlights my point. He did not ordain their sins even though He used them as an instrument of judgement.

It is obvious you desire a different view, but for all the bluster that you “...do not try to make the Bible contradict itself” you actually do that very thing in some posts.

No, I simply reject your bargain basement interpretations that try to make God responsible for the sins that occur.

Do not be alarmed, I once was as you are, and was blind to the inconsistency of that thinking, as well as blinded by that thinking.

I am wholly consistent. It is your view that God can cause sin without being responsible for causing it and your latest heresy that God causes some people to go to Hell that tells me that you have never been like me. I don't engage in false doctrine, nor do I say things that amount to an assault on God's character. That's all you.

When Joshua lead, the people were obliged by the command of God to obliterate the inhabitants. It is reported in Scripture God also directed the bees to go before the Israeli and drive the inhabitants out.

If we use your view, God was in fact engaged in what is modernly held as “crimes against humanity” when others such as Hitler do the same.

I am not comparing the two, I am posting that your view cannot escape that conclusion.

What I am saying is that what God told Joshua to do, bears no resemblance to what Hitler did, and what God told Joshua to do is consistent with God's righteousness.

 

[agedman]

Romans 9

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
​

Scripture example of God’s authority and control.

He has the authority to make vessels.
Some vessels He makes are honorable, others dishonorable.
He has authority over the vessels use by calling some beloved leaving others.
​

 

[GoodTidings]

But you are disputing that Pharaoh could have changed his mind at any time, which God said he would not.

Yes, God said he would not change his mind. That does not mean that he couldn't. The power to change his mind was there, but will to do so was not.