Asking for help again, please

[John of Japan]

Folks, in the first place our church services are not primarily worship services. Worship occurs in them, but they are not for that. None of you can show a single Scripture that suggests that when our church meets on Sunday it is for worship. Worship is something that should occur all day every day, not just for an hour on Sunday.

So what are the purposes of our Sunday church services?

(1) They are for mutual strengthening and encouragement (Heb. 10:25).

(2) They are for the pastor and other preachers (elders if you must) to train the believers in ministry (Eph. 4:11-12). In this sense the OP pastor was correct.

(3) The pastor was also right thus far, that the church service is not primarily for the lost. The Great Commission says we are to go out and get them, not hope for them to come to us. Having said that, a Sunday morning service most certainly can be for the salvation of the lost. 1 Cor. 14:23-25 indicates that sometimes we should expect the lost to come to our services, and when they do, they should be inspired to worship--that is, bow down to Christ, get saved and follow and serve Him.

In a "Gospel-resistant" country like Japan, it often takes a person a long, long time to fully understand and accept the Gospel. We have a lady who has been coming for about a year who is not yet saved but is slowing drawing near to God and understanding more and more Thus, if my messages are never evangelistic, they will not meet the needs of her heart. Again, we have a new believer who is very enthusiastic (as much as he can be with the disease he has), but is quite empty of knowledge about basic salvation. He too needs messages on salvation once in awhile.

 

[David Lamb]

(2) They are for the pastor and other preachers (elders if you must) to train the believers in ministry (Eph. 4:11-12). In this sense the OP pastor was correct.

Why "elders if you must"? (I ask only to gain a clearer understanding of your post, J of J, not in any contentious way).

 

[John of Japan]

Why "elders if you must"? (I ask only to gain a clearer understanding of your post, J of J, not in any contentious way).

No contentious spirit seen, brother!

I consider elders and pastors (shepherds) to be one and the same according to 1 Peter 5:1-4. So I have no problems with people using the term "elder" as a church leader "if you must." I was just allowing for that difference in terminology so that no one would mistake the minor point for the major one.

There are some who use the term "elder rule" in a way that I have no problem with, since they allow for congregationalism as part of the model. I do have a problem with strict elder rule (much like Presbyterianism) wherein the people are never considered mature enough to run any part of their own church. And I believe the congregation has that right according to the Bible.

 

[David Lamb]

No contentious spirit seen, brother!

I consider elders and pastors (shepherds) to be one and the same according to 1 Peter 5:1-4. So I have no problems with people using the term "elder" as a church leader "if you must." I was just allowing for that difference in terminology so that no one would mistake the minor point for the major one.

There are some who use the term "elder rule" in a way that I have no problem with, since they allow for congregationalism as part of the model. I do have a problem with strict elder rule (much like Presbyterianism) wherein the people are never considered mature enough to run any part of their own church. And I believe the congregation has that right according to the Bible.

Thanks! I understand that, and agree.

 

[Humblesmith]

I was saved by way of preaching from the pulpit. It was not a totally evangelistic service, although there was some evangelism there. It was mainly just pure explanation of the text. If we stick to explaining the scriptures, the worship and the evangelism and everything else will just happen by itself.

I suspect that the pastor in the OP might have been focused on avoiding week after week of evangelism from the pulpit without any further growth, or an extreme focus on seeker services that avoid worship.

 

[willowdee]

Humblesmith, I think you're right about the pastor speaking out against seeker-sensitive groups who leave the worship out of their services, for which I applaud him. However, to ignore the need for some evangelism in the sermon is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The focus is worship, but that doesn't mean we don't include the message of salvation as part of that worship service. And I think a short invitation would be a nice addition to our present liturgy.

My humble opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Dee

 

[pinoybaptist]

I agree that you give them the gospel where they are. But what if where they are is in the church? The lost may seldom come to church, but the lost seeker is likely to actually show up during the worship service. If they hear that "we are not here to meet the needs of the lost," chances are he will assume his needs are of no importance. It goes without saying that we witness wherever we have the opportunity, but one of those opportunities may in the church, during the worship service. Not necessarily after and outside.

I think I may have inadvertently become a Methodist somewhere along the line.

\

I think I can put it this way.
There are types of people who come to church:
* You have the church members, and the church officers, these are they who have professed to know Christ, to have experienced His grace, and are there as members of a local body whose main purpose AND directive is to worship the Lord ;

* In the Arminian and hypo-Calvinistic churches you have those who have been invited to church because of some "soul - winning" campaign by the former or an invite-your-lost-friends by the latter. Among those who did come, whether invited by Arminian or Calvinist, there are genuine seekers, and these are no longer "unsaved", these are regenerate souls who "thirst for God" and want to know more of Him. They may appear curious, they may appear skeptical, but the fact remains, no one with a worldly mindset and unregenerate will come to a Bible-preaching, Christ-worshipping church, UNLESS, they have love and personal and/or financial interests there.

But the PURPOSE of church itself must never be deviated from what the Savior commands it: worship, worship, prayer, and songs. The messages must be to exalt Christ, to magnify His Name, to lift up His Person.

If the Holy Spirit is working His will on somebody in the audience, then let Him do what He will.
He can draw anyone and "save" anyone, in any setting, anywhere.

 

[thomas15]

I really don't have a profound comment to make but I would like to know opinions on this aspect of this thread. The OP stated that the pastor mentioned from the pulpit that the worship service was not focused on the lost.

My question, if you were sitting in a pew, unsaved and heard this, would you know and admitt that you were lost and hence take offense or feel unwanted?

 

[MB]

Why call it a worship service if most of what you're doing is sitting there listening to the preacher preach. Isn't worship about;

"Chiefly and eminently, the act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; or the reverence and homage paid to him in religious exercises, consisting in adoration, confession, prayer, thanksgiving and the like." From websters dictionary.

I've always considered Prayer meetings to be more of a worship service than Sunday mornings listening to the preacher.
MB

 

[SBCPreacher]

I still find it exciting that I can be preaching on something other than an evangelistic message (The Model Prayer in Matthew, for instance) and the Holy Spirit will take that message and use it to convict a lost person of their need for salvation and they get saved.

Even though I don't preach salvation to the lost every service, they still seem to hear it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

<snip>
My question, if you were sitting in a pew, unsaved and heard this, would you know and admitt that you were lost and hence take offense or feel unwanted?

The "lost" do not know they are "lost". Many of them think it's the other guy that's "lost", not him.
On the other hand, if he knows he's "lost", then guess what, he's not "lost" anymore.
He's been found.
That's what I was saying in my post.
And if he's been "found", then he's under conviction.
If he's truly under conviction, then he would seek out Christ instead of taking offense at the message not being given for his sake.

On the other hand, too, the one who takes offense that the message is not about him and but about the Creator and Savior, can take offense all he wants.

 

[willowdee]

The "lost" do not know they are "lost". Many of them think it's the other guy that's "lost", not him.
On the other hand, if he knows he's "lost", then guess what, he's not "lost" anymore.
He's been found.

I respectfully disagree. Based on my own experience...when I was lost I was not yet found, but I certainly understood who the pastor was referring to when he used the word. I was somewhere between lost and found...I was seeking. But had I been in the congregation and heard that statement, given my opinion of organized religion at that point in my life, I probably wouldn't have believed that God didn't want me, but I certainly would have assumed that that particular church didn't want me. I would have gone to a different church. Or, maybe not. I might have decided to get all my preaching from TV.

I was lost. I didn't understand then that it wasn't about me. Deluded as I was, I thought at least some of it was about me. After I was saved, I began to understand what worship is. When I was a baby Christian, though, I still understand for quite a while. I had to grow as a Christian to even begin to "get" it.

In Christ,
Dee

 

[Brother Bob]

I certainly knew I was lost when I was a wordly person. If you ask me, I would of told you that if I die in that condition, that hell would be my home. I believe that all those who live a sinful life, know they are lost. But thats just me.

Why did they keep asking the Lord and the Apostles "what must I do to be saved"??

BBob,

 

[pinoybaptist]

I respectfully disagree. Based on my own experience...when I was lost I was not yet found, but I certainly understood who the pastor was referring to when he used the word. I was somewhere between lost and found...I was seeking. But had I been in the congregation and heard that statement, given my opinion of organized religion at that point in my life, I probably wouldn't have believed that God didn't want me, but I certainly would have assumed that that particular church didn't want me. I would have gone to a different church. Or, maybe not. I might have decided to get all my preaching from TV.

I was lost. I didn't understand then that it wasn't about me. Deluded as I was, I thought at least some of it was about me. After I was saved, I began to understand what worship is. When I was a baby Christian, though, I still understand for quite a while. I had to grow as a Christian to even begin to "get" it.

In Christ,
Dee

check out my post. if you knew you were "lost", then you're not "lost" anymore.

i was Arminian once, and i used to go around asking people to accept Christ, i used to once almost drag my friends to church so they can "get saved".

we would go knocking on doors and opening up our Bibles and almost beggin on our knees for people to please, please, accept Christ now, he's waiting for you, pleading with you.

guess what ?

many people would answer us and tell us, "oh, but i'm okay, it's my son (or my brother, or my sister, or my aunt, or my mom, or my pop) who needs this message.

he's an addict, or he's a drunk, or she's a gossip, or she's living in sin.

then there would be those who would listen intently to the message, be all dressed up for church when we come get him/her, rush forward during the invitation, and when they have been settled into kingdom life, later on testify that for days or months they have been bothered by their condition and that they feared they were bound for hell.

 

[willowdee]

rush forward during the invitation

I can't help wondering what they would have done if there had been no invitation.

 

[Aaron]

Dee, it seems this preacher isn't for you. If his doctrines and methods upset you, why don't you and your husband find another church?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I can't help wondering what they would have done if there had been no invitation.

I don't know. the churches i've been with when I was Arminian always gave out invitations.

How about yours ?

 

[Awarren]

As a "baby" Christian, saved 1 year ago, 50 something man, I went to worship and Bible study for six months prior to being saved. My Pastor never used the word LOST during service but instead made it clear that God's kingdom was available to any of us that requested it. We are a small? 100 person/week New England Church but are growing through a combination of new Christian members and by people like me(newly saved).

 

[pinoybaptist]

I can't help wondering what they would have done if there had been no invitation.

to follow up on this question, they probably would never have been "saved", rendering Christ actually without power to save anyone unless some human entity helps out, like the "soul winner".

 

[willowdee]

Aaron, you are correct in assuming our pastor's methods sometimes upset us. We may eventually leave the church, but not right now. We have a 40+ year history with this church...leaving is not something we would do because we're temporarily (I hope) dissatisfied. As I'm sure you would agree, leaving a church is not something one should do lightly, and if we left every time someone said or did something we didn't agree with we wouldn't be at any church for very long.

Pinoybapist, I don't know whether our church would be considered Arminian though I suspect most of its members are. Our pastor, however, is not. And no, we don't have an invitation. We do have a song at the end of the service, but there is no invitation from the pulpit.

And yes, I understand God doesn't need our help to win souls. I simply think it would be a nice gesture to make people feel welcome in our church whether they are saved or not. It is my (apparently minority) opinion that we become a stumbling block when we appear to be less than loving toward our fellow man.

In Christ,
Dee