Aspects of the Atonement

[Yeshua1]

So why did Jesus have to die if it was not to take our punishment instead of us??

He took the very wrath of God that was to be directed towards me as a lost sinner

 

[Reformed]

@Reformed,
thank you for your helpful posts. Perhaps I may add a couple of additional comments:
In answer to @agedman's point, God's wrath is intimately bound up with His justice (Psalms 7:11). I think that a most important point concerning the Atonement is God's justice. How can God be 'just, and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus'? How can he be faithful and just to forgive us our sins'? How can He pardon the wicked?
Exodus 34:6-7. “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding with goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty.” Immediately the question arises, how can God be merciful and gracious, how can He forgive iniquity, transgression and sin without clearing the guilty? How can He clear the guilty if He abounds with truth—if He is a ‘just Judge’ (Psalm 7:11)? How can it be said that, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ unless God can simultaneously punish sin and forgive sinners? The answer is that ‘God……devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him’ (2 Samuel 14:14). Those means are Penal Substitution. “Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe. His love does not diminish His justice nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ” (C.H. Spurgeon).
Unless our Lord Himself, in the Person of Christ, has taken my sins upon Himself and paid the full penalty for them, God cannot acquit me. 'By no means clearing the guilty.'

The other point concerns our Union with Christ. What He has done, I have done; what He has suffered, I have suffered; where He has gone, I have gone in Him.
'I have been crucified with Christ' (Galatians 2:20).
'But God......even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ......and raised us up together, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus' (Ephesians 2:4-6).
'For our citizenship is in heaven' (Philippians 3:20).
'If then you were raised with Christ........... For you died and your life is hid with Christ in God' (Colossians 3:1-3).

So in the light of such texts it is not surprising that the Lord Jesus announces, '.....Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:26). So in the mind of God, which is all that matters, we have already suffered the penalty for sin and the curse of Deuteronomy 21:23; we have been raised from the dead, we are ascended into heaven and our lives are hidden with Christ in God and therefore we shall never die because we already have done so.

.

Thank you for unpacking scripture on this.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for unpacking scripture on this.

Interesting to me was that he used the scripture, not philosophy, in detailing this theology!

 

[JonC]

He took the very wrath of God that was to be directed towards me as a lost sinner

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that God punished Jesus with the punishment for our sins?

And what did this "wrath" consist of?

Was there any left over for us?

Interesting to me was that he used the scripture, not philosophy, in detailing this theology!

Yes. We can all agree with the Scripture that he used in dealing with his theology. That is something that unites us. It is the philosophy that divides, not Scripture.

We do not face the judgment for our sins, and do not experience enteral seperation from the Father...

I understand this spiritual aspect - you have said before that Jesus experienced a type of separation from God. (We are born that way, spiritually separated from God).

But this does not explain why Jesus had to die. You say to take God's wrath instead of us taking it, and that this is separation from God. But what I am asking is what worth Jesus' blood had (not his experience of some type of separation from God). Why did Jesus have to die?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that God punished Jesus with the punishment for our sins?

And what did this "wrath" consist of?

Was there any left over for us?

Yes. We can all agree with the Scripture that he used in dealing with his theology. That is something that unites us. It is the philosophy that divides, not Scripture.



I understand this spiritual aspect - you have said before that Jesus experienced a type of separation from God. (We are born that way, spiritually separated from God).

But this does not explain why Jesus had to die. You say to take God's wrath instead of us taking it, and that this is separation from God. But what I am asking is what worth Jesus' blood had (not his experience of some type of separation from God). Why did Jesus have to die?

the father treated Jesus as if that was you and me hanging on that Cross, as he tasted and experience for those 3 hours as the sin bearer the wrath and judgment and separation from God all lost sinners shall taste!
And Jesus was prophesied in the OT to die as cursed by God, hanging upon the tree, and that by his strips and shed blood we would be spiritual healed, correct?

 

[MB]

The scriptures teach that God intended the Cross of Christ to be applied towards those whom He intended the blood to purchase back and ransom back, the Elect of God in Christ.

The lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This excludes Gentiles in the beginning of the ministry of Christ. He did not come to save Gentiles
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

The lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This excludes Gentiles in the beginning of the ministry of Christ. He did not come to save Gentiles
MB

His mission was to present Himself, offer Himself to Israel as being their promised Messiah and King, but he knew the nation would reject Him as such, as already had the Church in His plans to have both jews and Gentiles gathered together in one body!

 

[JonC]

the father treated Jesus as if that was you and me hanging on that Cross, as he tasted and experience for those 3 hours as the sin bearer the wrath and judgment and separation from God all lost sinners shall taste!
And Jesus was prophesied in the OT to die as cursed by God, hanging upon the tree, and that by his strips and shed blood we would be spiritual healed, correct?

So the payment for our sins made instead of us was not a physical death or the actual shedding of blood and suffering (as we obviously die physically and suffer physically in this life) but a sense of hell in terms of a type of spiritual separation.... Correct?

 

[MB]

His mission was to present Himself, offer Himself to Israel as being their promised Messiah and King, but he knew the nation would reject Him as such, as already had the Church in His plans to have both jews and Gentiles gathered together in one body!

Never the less The sheep are the house of Israel. The Gentiles are not the sheep He originally came tp save. Not only this the Jews resisted God's will.
You even admit this is true by acknowledging that they rejected Christ. Next you'll be telling me that grace cannot be rejected or resisted.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

So the payment for our sins made instead of us was not a physical death or the actual shedding of blood and suffering (as we obviously die physically and suffer physically in this life) but a sense of hell in terms of a type of spiritual separation.... Correct?

No, it was all of the above, as Jesus took our sins upon Himself while hanging there, which made Him experience the wrath and judgment of God all lost sinners due in hell, but he had to still die by shedding his blood to make his sacrifice acceptable to the father!

 

[Yeshua1]

Never the less The sheep are the house of Israel. The Gentiles are not the sheep He originally came tp save. Not only this the Jews resisted God's will.
You even admit this is true by acknowledging that they rejected Christ. Next you'll be telling me that grace cannot be rejected or resisted.
MB

It can be by the lost, as they keep on rejecting Jesus to save them, but all elect sinners will turn to Jesus and accept Him!

 

[JonC]

No, it was all of the above, as Jesus took our sins upon Himself while hanging there, which made Him experience the wrath and judgment of God all lost sinners due in hell, but he had to still die by shedding his blood to make his sacrifice acceptable to the father!

So His death was not the sacrifice itself (the sacrifice was suffering God's punishment so that we would not) but an addition because that is the way to make sacrifices?

The redemption is not in the powerless blood and valueless death of Christ (which were simply a means to an end) but in Jesus experiencing God's punishment so that we will not?

 

[Yeshua1]

So His death was not the sacrifice itself (the sacrifice was suffering God's punishment so that we would not) but an addition because that is the way to make sacrifices?

The redemption is not in the powerless blood and valueless death of Christ (which were simply a means to an end) but in Jesus experiencing God's punishment so that we will not?

Jesus had to first experience the wrath of God and receive in Himself the punishment due to lost sinners under judgment of a Holy God, and once their transaction was completed, Jesus died by shedding of His blood .

 

[JonC]

No, it was all of the above, as Jesus took our sins upon Himself while hanging there, which made Him experience the wrath and judgment of God all lost sinners due in hell, but he had to still die by shedding his blood to make his sacrifice acceptable to the father!

That is what I said. What paid our sin debt was the Father punishing Him instead of punishing us. His shed blood and death just made God accept it. Correct?

 

[JonC]

Jesus had to first experience the wrath of God and receive in Himself the punishment due to lost sinners under judgment of a Holy God, and once their transaction was completed, Jesus died by shedding of His blood .

Yes, people die when their blood is shed, I agree. But that is not what paid our debt (since we die), what really matters (the main focus) is the part of it all that was punishment instead of us being punished (penal substitution), correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, people die when their blood is shed, I agree. But that is not what paid our debt (since we die), what really matters (the main focus) is the part of it all that was punishment instead of us being punished (penal substitution), correct?

Someone has to take the judgment of God towards sins, so its either Jesus dieing in our stead, or ourselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is what I said. What paid our sin debt was the Father punishing Him instead of punishing us. His shed blood and death just made God accept it. Correct?

No, rather its his sinless humanity and His Deity that provided for that, as it took a sinless man to die, but that man also had to be fully God to die for all of His chosen and atone for all of them!

 

[JonC]

Someone has to take the judgment of God towards sins, so its either Jesus dieing in our stead, or ourselves!

Ok. I do not know if I am being clear and apologize if I have not been so far. I am not saying that you are incorrect but I am trying to break down your view.

If I understand you correctly:

These things were not a vital part of redemption (what effected redemption):

1. Christ's shed blood
2. Christ's physical suffering on the cross
3. Christ's physical death.

Those things are important but they are not substitutionary because those things are still common to man (even the elect).

What redeemed us is:

1. God satisfying divine justice by punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.

We did not need someone to die for us (physically) but someone to take the judgment of God towards sins instead of us. Correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok. I do not know if I am being clear and apologize if I have not been so far. I am not saying that you are incorrect but I am trying to break down your view.

If I understand you correctly:

These things were not a vital part of redemption (what effected redemption):

1. Christ's shed blood
2. Christ's physical suffering on the cross
3. Christ's physical death.

Those things are important but they are not substitutionary because those things are still common to man (even the elect).

What redeemed us is:

1. God satisfying divine justice by punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.

We did not need someone to die for us (physically) but someone to take the judgment of God towards sins instead of us. Correct?

In order to have that wrath and judgment fully atoned for, Jesus had to shed His blood and die upon that Cross, so it all is tied together!

 

[JonC]

In order to have that wrath and judgment fully atoned for, Jesus had to shed His blood and die upon that Cross, so it all is tied together!

I know it is tied together.

Man's blood is shed, he will suffer and die AND THEN the judgment.

What you present is Jesus having to be born, live, suffer, have his blood spilled and die as is command mankind.

But the redeeming part is what He suffered instead of us (this spiritual separation), correct?

In other words what is in focus is this spiritual separation from God in Hell. Correct?