Assisted Suicides

[Gina B]

In some very special circumstances, I cannot say I would not agree with it being allowed.

My only issue is that people are sinful and sometimes what is good for one then is demanded by others and since we don't have a legal system that allows for common sense, it messes good things up for those who really need it when others demand it as their right...or who will start going down that hill and saying it should able to be mandated and we start getting into forced mercy killings for a better society. Blech!

(I also agree with mercy deaths in some extremely limited circumstances and do believe happens quietly now, although illegal)

 

[annsni]

Ann as usual you did not read what I said or you disregarded it.

Every time I disagree with you, you say I did not read what you said or disregarded it. Just to let you know, you are wrong.

I said it was illegal so that means it is not allowed. The fact that you know some Doctors who will not do this does not mean it does not go on. Also do you really think they are going to admit it if they did? DUH it is illegal! Other doctors are not going to admit it to them because of the possibility of prosecution, but this does take place way more then most realize. When a family goes to a Doctor and asks for this there are those who will and in fact do it.

And you apparently missed that these are CLOSE friends. As in we are honest with each other. I have asked about this and not one of them have ever even seen this happen. They are in the medical field and are truthful with me. You - I don't even know and have learned not to trust you. So I will go with the experts who actually live the life.

How about answering the question?
So to the question. Should assisted suicide be legal by any one, Doctors only, under all circumstances, some circumstances, never?

Never.

 

[freeatlast]

In some very special circumstances, I cannot say I would not agree with it being allowed.

My only issue is that people are sinful and sometimes what is good for one then is demanded by others and since we don't have a legal system that allows for common sense, it messes good things up for those who really need it when others demand it as their right...or who will start going down that hill and saying it should able to be mandated and we start getting into forced mercy killings for a better society. Blech!

(I also agree with mercy deaths in some extremely limited circumstances and do believe happens quietly now, although illegal)

So Gina is it correct that you feel that God is in approval of "mercy deaths" under special circumstances?

 

[freeatlast]

There is no question that when someone is just hanging on and there is no hope of their recovery the very fact that they seem not to be able to die to stop suffering or lingering is a very mentally trying situation for the loved ones.

Our Lord tells us not to murder but He allows us to take life under certain circumstances. The problem here is that there is no examples in scripture where He approves of assisted suicide. Yes there is suicides in the bible, but no word from God as to His approval.

With that it leaves me to have to take caution on the side of not actively assisting the person's death. At the same time I would say it is not necessary to extend the life through artificial means, but to actively help in the death I would not participate.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Assisted suicide? Never, in any circumstance.

Years ago, doctors were sworn to an Hippocratic oath that they would use whatever means necessary to preserve life. They should still be sworn to and held to that same oath.

From wickipedia.com:

At the time of being admitted as a member of the medical profession:

I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity;
The health of my patient will be my first consideration;
I will respect the secrets which are confided in me;
I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
My colleagues will be my brothers and sisters;
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, gender, politics, socioeconomic standing, or sexual orientation to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life; even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honour.[6]

 

[freeatlast]

Assisted suicide? Never, in any circumstance.

Years ago, doctors were sworn to an Hippocratic oath that they would use whatever means necessary to preserve life. They should still be sworn to and held to that same oath.

From wickipedia.com:

At the time of being admitted as a member of the medical profession:

I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity;
The health of my patient will be my first consideration;
I will respect the secrets which are confided in me;
I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
My colleagues will be my brothers and sisters;
I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, gender, politics, socioeconomic standing, or sexual orientation to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life; even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honour.[6]

Sadly that last word is the kicker "honour."

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Right.

Methinks it is no longer the "Hippocratic Oath" that they take, but rather the "Hypocrite Oath"

 

[Scarlett O.]

Where do you get the information that doctors begin morphine to hasten death?

Ann, I'm not talking about the administration of morphine as in your mother's case - several weeks or months prior an unknown time of death. That's for making people comfortable and making them breath easy.

I'm talking about when the person has 12-48 hours left and the doctors "call in the family". (That's what they call it here in the south.) In the case of family members, my aunt, my two grandfathers, and a great-aunt, when the family was told that death was imminent in a matter of hours to a couple of days at the most - mophine was administered. There was no pain - no struggle. Why the morphine if not for putting them into a sleep that they would never recover from? They are already unresponsive, unconscious, and the end is inevitable and coming quickly.

My family has been told by a nurse that this what the morphine is for in cases like this. It's a respiratory depressent.

 

[annsni]

Ann, I'm not talking about the administration of morphine as in your mother's case - several weeks or months prior an unknown time of death. That's for making people comfortable and making them breath easy.

I'm talking about when the person has 12-48 hours left and the doctors "call in the family". (That's what they call it here in the south.) In the case of family members, my aunt, my two grandfathers, and a great-aunt, when the family was told that death was imminent in a matter of hours to a couple of days at the most - mophine was administered. There was no pain - no struggle. Why the morphine if not for putting them into a sleep that they would never recover from? They are already unresponsive, unconscious, and the end is inevitable and coming quickly.

My family has been told by a nurse that this what the morphine is for in cases like this. It's a respiratory depressent.

Could it be that the doctors saw signs of pain that the family would not? I know an elevated heart rate, elevated breathing and higher blood pressure might show signs of pain. I wonder if the doctor is working off of that.

 

[Gina B]

So Gina is it correct that you feel that God is in approval of "mercy deaths" under special circumstances?

Yes. That is correct.

 

[Alcott]

It's been a long time since I've posted about anthing like this, but a long time ago I mentioned 2 examples of what I think are justified killings.

One was fictional-- in an old TV western series, a teenage boy somehow got separated from the wagon train, a party of men went looking for him and they saw him tied to a stake with dry brush around it. Knowing that the Indians intended to burn him one man rushed to him, but was shot by an arrow. Then a fired arrow was shot and lit the brush and the boy pleaded for the other man to shoot him, rather than let him burn; which the man did. Were I in either place-- the boy or the man-- I would have done the same thing.

The other example was the World Trade Center on 9-11-01. People were jumping out of windows, inevitably because they were being smothered by gases or there was no escape from flames. I am quite certain I would do that (jump to my death) in the same situation, too. And if someone was beside me, afraid to jump, I would offer my hand to jump together. Would that be 'assisted suicide,' as well as suicide? The first example was not assisted suicide, but killing to avoid an inevitably more torturous death. And that seems to be what this topic is about.

Okay, so nobody wants to go hiking with me or way up in a tall building. I can handle that.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Could it be that the doctors saw signs of pain that the family would not? I know an elevated heart rate, elevated breathing and higher blood pressure might show signs of pain. I wonder if the doctor is working off of that.

I'm certain that in some cases that could be it. That's why the doctors have the medical license. I'm sure that they do see things that we don't.

I just don't know if it's in every case.

 

[IANMO(IAMNTMYOWN)]

God is good. Life is good.

Several good arguments and comments have been made concerning this issue, however, I must ask you one question. Who defines life? If you said God, then who defines the end of life? I would contend that it is God as well. In the case of suicide, do we not then usurp the position of the master of life and death. A person who determines that his life is no longer worth living feels that he can make a more valid decision on his personal worth and existence rather than his all-knowing Creator. Blasphemous don't you think?

I understand the mindset of suicidal individual. I contemplated it twice in my teen years under some troubling circumstances in my life. There was a strong voice that countered this action that said, "Who are you to decide when I am finished with you?" I am glad that I didn't. So many things have happened in these past few years. I can't believe I thought of cutting these years short.

God is good all the time; all the time God is good.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Several good arguments and comments have been made concerning this issue, however, I must ask you one question. Who defines life? If you said God, then who defines the end of life? I would contend that it is God as well. In the case of suicide, do we not then usurp the position of the master of life and death. A person who determines that his life is no longer worth living feels that he can make a more valid decision on his personal worth and existence rather than his all-knowing Creator. Blasphemous don't you think?

I understand the mindset of suicidal individual. I contemplated it twice in my teen years under some troubling circumstances in my life. There was a strong voice that countered this action that said, "Who are you to decide when I am finished with you?" I am glad that I didn't. So many things have happened in these past few years. I can't believe I thought of cutting these years short.

God is good all the time; all the time God is good.

Excellent point!

 

[Sapper Woody]

I answered the original question in my last post. But since then, "mercy killing" has been brought up. This makes me stop to think. I am in favor of "mercy killing", such as in the fictional case of the boy being burned. But I am against assisted suicide. But, how are they different? It does make me pause to think.

I guess what needs to be present for me to accept it is an imminent death with the possibility of an immediate, more comfortable death. If a healthy but depressed individual wants to end it, I don't think that a doctor should be allowed to help. But I don't think that anyone has this type of scenario in mind.

If a person is in pain, and they are going to die anyway, then I could see helping them out. So, I would like to change my original answer to yes, but with limitations.

 

[Oldtimer]

If a person is in pain, and they are going to die anyway, then I could see helping them out. So, I would like to change my original answer to yes, but with limitations.

Isn't that where mankind gets in trouble with God? It (whatever "it" may be) is in the hands of God, except when ..........

Jesus was in agony on the cross. In order to fulfill the scriptures for God's plan of salvation for this world of sinners, Jesus had to die that painful death. Wouldn't we all be in a heap of trouble, if someone decided to end His suffering prematurely and was successful in the attempt?

Even if our hearts are bursting with empathy and compassion at the sight of someones suffering, are we right in the eyes of God, to take matters into our own hands?

IMHO, when we start making exceptions, for whatever reason that seems to be valid, aren't we starting down a slippery slope that will eventually have a long list of exceptions. A list so long that God's will is no longer being considered. Look at societies growing list of "acceptable" ways to prematurely end lives that God created.

If/when we encounter extreme suffering isn't our responsbility to lift that person in prayer and plead for God's mercy to quickly bring them home, if they are His? Or, to decide for ourselves when that will happen? To pray that God will be merciful on the lost? Or, to end what may be God's punishment for those who have rejected Him, on our schedule and not His?

 

[freeatlast]

Isn't that where mankind gets in trouble with God? It (whatever "it" may be) is in the hands of God, except when ..........

Jesus was in agony on the cross. In order to fulfill the scriptures for God's plan of salvation for this world of sinners, Jesus had to die that painful death. Wouldn't we all be in a heap of trouble, if someone decided to end His suffering prematurely and was successful in the attempt?

Even if our hearts are bursting with empathy and compassion at the sight of someones suffering, are we right in the eyes of God, to take matters into our own hands?

IMHO, when we start making exceptions, for whatever reason that seems to be valid, aren't we starting down a slippery slope that will eventually have a long list of exceptions. A list so long that God's will is no longer being considered. Look at societies growing list of "acceptable" ways to prematurely end lives that God created.

If/when we encounter extreme suffering isn't our responsbility to lift that person in prayer and plead for God's mercy to quickly bring them home, if they are His? Or, to decide for ourselves when that will happen? To pray that God will be merciful on the lost? Or, to end what may be God's punishment for those who have rejected Him, on our schedule and not His?

With this we are in agreement. Too often compromise enters in due to emotion rather then faith and we go astray. :thumbs:

 

[Sapper Woody]

Isn't that where mankind gets in trouble with God? It (whatever "it" may be) is in the hands of God, except when ..........

Jesus was in agony on the cross. In order to fulfill the scriptures for God's plan of salvation for this world of sinners, Jesus had to die that painful death. Wouldn't we all be in a heap of trouble, if someone decided to end His suffering prematurely and was successful in the attempt?

Even if our hearts are bursting with empathy and compassion at the sight of someones suffering, are we right in the eyes of God, to take matters into our own hands?

IMHO, when we start making exceptions, for whatever reason that seems to be valid, aren't we starting down a slippery slope that will eventually have a long list of exceptions. A list so long that God's will is no longer being considered. Look at societies growing list of "acceptable" ways to prematurely end lives that God created.

If/when we encounter extreme suffering isn't our responsbility to lift that person in prayer and plead for God's mercy to quickly bring them home, if they are His? Or, to decide for ourselves when that will happen? To pray that God will be merciful on the lost? Or, to end what may be God's punishment for those who have rejected Him, on our schedule and not His?

Here's my dilemma: I want to say that assisted suicide should be illegal and is wrong. However, as per the fictional example, if I saw someone on fire screaming for help, I would shoot them to put them out of their misery. And I realize that it is hypocritical of me to say that my actions would be ok and others' wouldn't be.

 

[freeatlast]

Here's my dilemma: I want to say that assisted suicide should be illegal and is wrong. However, as per the fictional example, if I saw someone on fire screaming for help, I would shoot them to put them out of their misery. And I realize that it is hypocritical of me to say that my actions would be ok and others' wouldn't be.

Woody let ma ask you something. Do you think that God would want you to shoot the person instead of trying to save them so the medical profession could try and help them recover? Are you basing this on what you feel God would want?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Here's my dilemma: I want to say that assisted suicide should be illegal and is wrong. However, as per the fictional example, if I saw someone on fire screaming for help, I would shoot them to put them out of their misery. And I realize that it is hypocritical of me to say that my actions would be ok and others' wouldn't be.

I have to wonder if, in a situation such as the fictional character on fire, why one would not have faith to cry out "Father, save them!"

Is God too weak to send a sudden rain to douse the flame? Is He not the same God that brought Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego out of the fiery furnace?

Making split-second decisions to end a person's life is not a godly, nor wise, decision in my opinion.