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Assumption of Mary

Ps104_33

New Member
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Jesus left his earthly Mother Mary in the Apostle John's charge to care for her. I think we can all agree that John probably out lived Mary.
Why doesnt John mention such a spectacular event as the assumption, body and soul, of Mary into heaven anywhere in the Bible?
One could make the argument that her death isnt mentioned either. But that would further prove that the apostles didnt elevate Mary to the position that the Roman Church does.
 

orthodox

New Member
Ps104_33 said:
Jesus left his earthly Mother Mary in the Apostle John's charge to care for her. I think we can all agree that John probably out lived Mary.
Why doesnt John mention such a spectacular event as the assumption, body and soul, of Mary into heaven anywhere in the Bible?
One could make the argument that her death isnt mentioned either. But that would further prove that the apostles didnt elevate Mary to the position that the Roman Church does.

He doesn't mention it because he didn't write a book like Acts which chronicles the church after Jesus' assumption. One might just as well ask why John doesn't write his own Acts or his own Romans or any number of interesting things he could have written.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
To see just how silly this ideah of mariolotry gets inside of the RCC --

Just look at the story the tell themselves on this subject --

The Transitus Mariæ
The Account of St. John the Theologian
of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God

AS THE ALL-HOLY glorious Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, as was her wont, was going to the holy tomb of our Lord to burn incense, and bending her holy knees, she was importunate that Christ our God who had been born of her should return to her.
And I John say to her: Jesus Christ our Lord and our God is coming, and thou seest Him, as He promised to thee. And the holy mother of God answered and said to me: The Jews have sworn that after I have died they will burn my body. And I answered and said to her: Thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption.
….
And I answered and said: Yes, I heard. And the Holy Spirit said to me: This voice which thou didst hear denotes that the appearance of thy brethren the apostles is at hand, and of the holy powers that they are coming hither to-day. And at this I John prayed.
[b]And the Holy Spirit said to the apostles: Let all of you together, having come by the clouds from the ends of the world, be assembled to holy Bethlehem by a whirlwind, on account of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ;[/b]
Peter from Rome, Paul from Tiberia, Thomas from Hither India, James from Jerusalem. Andrew, Peter's brother, and Philip, Luke, and Simon the Cananaean, and Thaddaeus who had fallen asleep, were raised by the Holy Spirit out of their tombs; to whom the Holy Spirit said: Do not think that it is now the resurrection; but on this account you have risen out of your tombs, that you may go to give greeting to the honour and wonder-working of the mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, because the day of her departure is at hand, of her going up into the heavens.
And Mark likewise coming round, was present from Alexandria; he also with the rest, as has been said before, from each country. And Peter being lifted up by a cloud, stood between heaven and earth, the Holy Spirit keeping him steady.[/b] And at the same time, the rest of the apostles also, having been snatched up in clouds, were found along with Peter. And thus by the Holy Spirit, as has been said, they all came together.
Note: For more information on this letter and other apocryphal works, see http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/01601a.htm.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
you may go to give greeting to the honour and wonder-working of the mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, because the day of her departure is at hand, of her going up into the heavens.
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
Why doesnt John mention such a spectacular event as the assumption, body and soul, of Mary into heaven anywhere in the Bible?
Why doesn't the Bible mention such a spectacular event as the assumption of the Ark of the Old Covenant, when we last see it, it is in the Temple of God in Heaven in Revalations 11?
 

Ps104_33

New Member
Why doesn't the Bible mention such a spectacular event as the assumption of the Ark of the Old Covenant, when we last see it, it is in the Temple of God in Heaven in Revalations 11?

If the RC Church worshipped the Ark of the covenant and Joseph, I would be asking the same question.
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
They don't worship Mary. It's just an ignorant belief.

In order to worship Mary, one must recognize her as a God. I have not met a Catholic that acknowledges her as a God yet. And I don't think I ever will. It's just an ignorant and unstable recognization as to what worship really is.

What does it mean to worship a diety?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Inquiring Mind said:
They don't worship Mary. It's just an ignorant belief.

In order to worship Mary, one must recognize her as a God. I have not met a Catholic that acknowledges her as a God yet. And I don't think I ever will. It's just an ignorant and unstable recognization as to what worship really is.

What does it mean to worship a diety?

Is it ignorant to admit that they pray to the dead and "worship at Mary's Altars" - or is it better to just place head-in-sand and ignore what they are doing?

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith,
bathe our hearts
with your heavenly perfume. Oh
Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and
protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people.
" – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950



Let the reader decide.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Inquiring Mind said:
They don't worship Mary. It's just an ignorant belief.

In order to worship Mary, one must recognize her as a God. I have not met a Catholic that acknowledges her as a God yet. And I don't think I ever will. It's just an ignorant and unstable recognization as to what worship really is.

What does it mean to worship a diety?

The SAME reverence given to the family gods and dead ancestors is given to the "Dead in Christ" according to the RCC.

Even the Hindus admit that the "lesser gods" are simply prayed TO while the 3 main powerful god's are highly reveared.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.


Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosary-like beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must![/b]
..
You ask about the Buddhists having anything like the Ten Commandments to go by. The answer is that [b] have Nine of the Ten. Only the specific seventh day being held holy would be Beyond the reach of ordinary right reason.”


In keeping with this model described by Catholic Digest – we find this prayer to St. Jude.

By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ"
(as Paul calls them) – A prayer to St. Jude.

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.

Amen.>>



Notice that although in 1Cor 3 – Paul is directing the people of God to shun the cult-of-personality that would “recruit devotees to a given church leader” – yet this is exactly the focus of the prayer to the dead that we see in this example of the prayer to St. Jude.
Where in all of scripture are God’s people told to seek devotees who would perform devotions to them? Notice that Peter “attempts” to go down that road in Matt 17 – and the author tells us that he “did not know what he was saying”. As if Peter is insane or out of his mind due to the magnitude of the moment.
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymnwhich is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are GloryOh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
It is just a letter from an overzealous Pope. It is not a letter written ex-cathedra. this is 56 years old. Do you not have anything new to give us. I have been in a number of Catholic Churches, I have yet to see an "Altar of Mary". So I have to conclude that his pope was speaking symbolically. Nothing more, nothing less. I notices you posted this on another thread here as well. Is that the best you can do, is copy and paste a portion of some obscure writing? Can you show us from the RCC Catechism that Mary worship is required or at the least encouraged? BTW, if you do not know, the RCC Catechism is the only offiicial textbook of RCC Dogma and Doctrine. I have read it in it's entirety in order to try an understand the RCC. Unless I have missed something, can you show where the RCC teaches the RCC people to worship Mary?
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
BobRyan said:
The SAME reverence given to the family gods and dead ancestors is given to the "Dead in Christ" according to the RCC.

Even the Hindus admit that the "lesser gods" are simply prayed TO while the 3 main powerful god's are highly reveared.

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.


Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosary-like beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must![/b]
..
You ask about the Buddhists having anything like the Ten Commandments to go by. The answer is that [b] have Nine of the Ten. Only the specific seventh day being held holy would be Beyond the reach of ordinary right reason.”


In keeping with this model described by Catholic Digest – we find this prayer to St. Jude.

By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ"
(as Paul calls them) – A prayer to St. Jude.

<
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.

I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.

Amen.>>



Notice that although in 1Cor 3 – Paul is directing the people of God to shun the cult-of-personality that would “recruit devotees to a given church leader” – yet this is exactly the focus of the prayer to the dead that we see in this example of the prayer to St. Jude.
Where in all of scripture are God’s people told to seek devotees who would perform devotions to them? Notice that Peter “attempts” to go down that road in Matt 17 – and the author tells us that he “did not know what he was saying”. As if Peter is insane or out of his mind due to the magnitude of the moment.
Again you are citing articles from magazines over a decade old. Articles are not official teachings of the RCC. Only the Catechism fits that bill. Unless of course you can provide some Scholarship that says there is some other written source of RCC teaching that is approved and official.

In Christ, I M.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
At the end Roman Catholic is totally different from Christianity based on the Bible, It is another religion, not Christian.
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
Eliyahu said:
At the end Roman Catholic is totally different from Christianity based on the Bible, It is another religion, not Christian.
That is your opinion. Just remember that when standing in front of Christ on the Day. I suggest you purchase the writings of the Early Church Fathers, a 38 volume set larger than most Encyclopedias. And discover what the ECFs believed. It is for the most part contrary to modern christianity.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Inquiring Mind said:
That is your opinion. Just remember that when standing in front of Christ on the Day. I suggest you purchase the writings of the Early Church Fathers, a 38 volume set larger than most Encyclopedias. And discover what the ECFs believed. It is for the most part contrary to modern christianity.
No, Bible is enough to teach me everything necessary to reject all the fable about the pagan goddess worship.

Read Jeremiah 44 and Colossians 2:18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
Eliyahu said:
No, Bible is enough to teach me everything necessary to reject all the fable about the pagan goddess worship.
You're stuck like a broken record, you can't get beyond the current groove.

Really: to "worship" Mary would require that the *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshipped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine. Case closed.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Inquiring Mind said:
You're stuck like a broken record, you can't get beyond the current groove.

Really: to "worship" Mary would require that the *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshipped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine. Case closed.

Nope! Catholic says more than that.

Catholic calls Mary as Mother of God, which implies that once she give birth to someone, that becomes God, thus call Mary as Mother of God, on top of God, Goddess producing God ( actually pagan gods).

Word play doesn't mean much, just watch CLAND, Catholic TV channel, then no one except RC's can deny that RC is worshipping goddess, statue of idol Mary!

That's why RC creates all the story about Mary, lifetime virgin Mary, Assumption of Mary, Mother of God, Mother of Church, Queen of Heaven, Redmptrix, Co-Redeemer Mary, etc.
 
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Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Have you heard about this ?

"Lifetime Virgin Mary, Perpetual Virgin Mary loved the world so much that she gave her only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Without Merciful Mary, the world redemption was absolutely impossible."

Is this what you want to claim ?
 

Chemnitz

New Member
It is likely the case where officially they do not worship Mary but in practice they do. The Reformers remarked in the Apology to the Augsburg Confession

Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured. For here the honor belonging only to Christ is altogether transferred to the saints. For they make them mediators and propitiators, and although they make a distinction between mediators of intercession and mediators [the Mediator] of redemption, yet they plainly make of the saints mediators of redemption. 15] But even that they are mediators of intercession they declare without the testimony of Scripture, which, be it said ever so reverently, nevertheless obscures Christ's office, and transfers the confidence of mercy due Christ to the saints. For men imagine that Christ is more severe and the saints more easily appeased, and they trust rather to the mercy of the saints than to the mercy of Christ, and fleeing from Christ [as from a tyrant], they seek the saints. Thus they actually make of them mediators of redemption.

I will have to admit the statues of Mary I have seen with candles around them strike me as rather similar to the idols in the Hindu temple I visited once.
 

Inquiring Mind

New Member
Catholic calls Mary as Mother of God, which implies that once she give birth to someone, that becomes God, thus call Mary as Mother of God, on top of God, Goddess producing God ( actually pagan gods).

Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Jesus did not become God.
Jesus was God Incarnate.
Mary gave birth to a God.
That does make her a Goddess.
Mary is the Mother of God the Son.
contracted down to
Mary is the Mother of God
in the same manner that would not is contracted down to wouldn't
Catholics deny that Mary is on top of God.

Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.
 
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