Assumption

[Carson Weber]

By the way, who invented the idea of a Mass?

Jesus, at the Last Supper.

P.S. DHK, many mystics have been given visions of the souls in Purgatory such as St. Catherine of Genoa; it exists brother, oh does it exist! And, your last post demonstrates your ignorance of Catholic doctrine; Catholics may very well believe that Mary died a natural death; in fact, it is the majority opinion.

 

[neal4christ]

many mystics have been given visions of the souls in Purgatory such as St. Catherine of Genoa; it exists brother, oh does it exist!

This is now how we determine if something is true or real? Come on, Carson. Many people have had many different visions. That doesn't make them true. Benny Hinn has visions, Joseph Smith claimed an encounter with an angel, and all kinds of people have had visions of the end of the world! Are all of these true? Is this our measure for truth, if someone has a vision?

God Bless,
Neal

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> many mystics have been given visions of the souls in Purgatory such as St. Catherine of Genoa; it exists brother, oh does it exist!

This is now how we determine if something is true or real? Come on, Carson. Many people have had many different visions. That doesn't make them true. Benny Hinn has visions, Joseph Smith claimed an encounter with an angel, and all kinds of people have had visions of the end of the world! Are all of these true? Is this our measure for truth, if someone has a vision?

God Bless,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Neal,

No, it is not how we determine that it is true or not. It was true beforehand, and we knew it was true beforehand. He offered this example as a form of validation, nothing more.

God bless,

Grant

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
By the way, who invented the idea of a Mass?

Jesus, at the Last Supper.

P.S. DHK, many mystics have been given visions of the souls in Purgatory such as St. Catherine of Genoa; it exists brother, oh does it exist! And, your last post demonstrates your ignorance of Catholic doctrine; Catholics may very well believe that Mary died a natural death; in fact, it is the majority opinion.

But wouldn't her soul already be in heaven? Doesn't that conflict with the dogma she was assumed into heaven body and soul?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Carson Weber:
By the way, who invented the idea of a Mass?

Jesus, at the Last Supper.

P.S. DHK, many mystics have been given visions of the souls in Purgatory such as St. Catherine of Genoa; it exists brother, oh does it exist! And, your last post demonstrates your ignorance of Catholic doctrine; Catholics may very well believe that Mary died a natural death; in fact, it is the majority opinion.

But wouldn't her soul already be in heaven? Doesn't that conflict with the dogma she was assumed into heaven body and soul? </font>[/QUOTE]No, rather it demonstrates your ignorance of visions. Many sufis of the Islamic religion have visions. Muhammed himself had visions. Did that make them valid? Of course not. Sufis seek an experience related religion in the midst of a religion that is legalistic and so much works related--much like the Catholic church--do these works and eventually you will get to heaven. Sufis seek experience, and thus have dreams. But their dreams are not from God, neither was St. Catherines. It was from demonic spirits. We are to test every spirit (1John 4:1-4) whether it be from God or not.
1. God does not speak through visions today (Heb.1:1,2)
2. Even if God did speak through a vision, the content of the vision must be Biblically based, and not contrary to the Word of God. St. Catherine', like Muhammed's, was not according to the Word of God.
3. One doesn't use visions to create or even use as evidence doctrine.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
[qb] By the way, who invented the idea of a Mass?

Jesus, at the Last Supper.

Wrong again. There is no such thing as a Mass in the New Testament, and there wasn't till years afterward. The Catholic Church invented the Mass with all of its trappings and inherent corruptions and heresies.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

What do you guys call the service where you bless the cup of blessing? How do you share in the body of Christ at your service? St. Paul says it by this that we share in the body of Christ.

Paul doesn't give a name to the service, but Jesus Christ gave the Church the keys to the kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church has the authority of Jesus Christ, so it was possible to come up with a name for it.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

No, it is not how we determine that it is true or not. It was true beforehand, and we knew it was true beforehand. He offered this example as a form of validation, nothing more.

Grant,

How are you doing? I switched internet services, that is why you don't see me on AOL any more.

Okay, going with that thinking. So if someone is convinced that Mohammad is the prophet of God and then has a vision later that confirms that, is it true? Or Benny Hinn? If he is convinced of some of the things he teaches and then later has visions that confirm them, are they true?

My point is that visions are not a valid way to determine truth because anyone can have a vision and you must accept all of them as true if that is the way you determine truth.

By the way, I don't remember seeing anyone answer. Are Catholics obligated to observe the Assumption of Mary today?

In the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ,
Neal

 

[Ray Berrian]

If Christ died for all of our sins {the sins of believers} and He did, {I Corinthians 15:3; I John 2:2a} then our record will be clean when we stand before the Lord. (II Corinthians 5:8) We will be dressed in the righteousness of the Son. [Romans 4:5; 5:1] These facts and others rule out a place and experience called Purgatory. The Judgment Seat of Christ in the future, but not this medieval myth. This is what Martin Luther came to believe; we are saved only and simply because of our trust in the merits of Jesus. Otherwise, we place ourselves again under the Law and its penalty and personal salvation depends on our 'good works' and/or our struggle to make Heaven our home, by our achievements. The merit of Christ for Christians is more than sufficient for our needs. That's why the Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:1 'Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound. Sure, His grace is greater than any of our sins, but we should not sin to prove the greatness of our personal salvation. Purgatory is not necessary because God tells the Apostle Paul to whisper in our ear that salvation is only by Jesus and through His resplendent grace, which is His unmerited grace in our hearts and lives. [Ephesians
2:8-9] The one Mediator rules and reigns on high. [I Timothy 2:5-6]

This is completely separate from the authority of the Bible, but it suggest my feelings and trust in Him. In the words of the hymnist:

'O to grace how great a debtor, daily I'm constrained to be;
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter, bind my wandering soul to Thee.'

 

[neal4christ]

I will ask again: are Catholics obligated in the sense of being required to observe the Assumption of Mary tomorrow? What happens if a Catholic does not observe it and go to mass?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
I will ask again: are Catholics obligated in the sense of being required to observe the Assumption of Mary tomorrow? What happens if a Catholic does not observe it and go to mass?

In Christ,
Neal

Catholics are obliged to assist at (attend) Mass (Code of Canon Law 1247). The ramifications of not attending are the same as of not attending Mass on Sunday -- anywhere from none to mortal sin, depending on the circumstances and the intent and understanding of the person.

Rats, another chance to join with all the angels and saints in heaven, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters on earth, in celebrating the Holy and Perfect Sacrifice of Christ! I am so bummed!

 

[neal4christ]

Rats, another chance to join with all the angels and saints in heaven, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters on earth, in celebrating the Holy and Perfect Sacrifice of Christ! I am so bummed!

So if someone does not have a decent excuse for missing mass observing the Assumption of Mary it can be sin for them?

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while th one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14:5-6, ESV

Then Paul goes on to say:

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Romans 14:13, ESV

Why is it okay for the RCC to impose the observance of a day on its people? Doesn't this go contrary to Paul's teaching? What if a Catholic does not believe in Mary's Assumption or want to observe a day for it because he is unsure about it? What happens then?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Rats, another chance to join with all the angels and saints in heaven, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters on earth, in celebrating the Holy and Perfect Sacrifice of Christ! I am so bummed!

So if someone does not have a decent excuse for missing mass observing the Assumption of Mary it can be sin for them?

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while th one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14:5-6, ESV

Then Paul goes on to say:

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Romans 14:13, ESV

Why is it okay for the RCC to impose the observance of a day on its people? Doesn't this go contrary to Paul's teaching? What if a Catholic does not believe in Mary's Assumption or want to observe a day for it because he is unsure about it? What happens then?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]The whole focus of those Scriptures is that we, individual believers, should not pass judgement on the way that others observe their faith. This is entirely different than Christ Himself, through His Mystical Body the Church, requiring certain disciplines (for I believe HDO's fall under the category of discipline).

 

[neal4christ]

This is entirely different than Christ Himself, through His Mystical Body the Church, requiring certain disciplines

If you say so.

In the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ,
Neal

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Rats, another chance to join with all the angels and saints in heaven, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters on earth, in celebrating the Holy and Perfect Sacrifice of Christ! I am so bummed!

So if someone does not have a decent excuse for missing mass observing the Assumption of Mary it can be sin for them?

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while th one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. Romans 14:5-6, ESV

Then Paul goes on to say:

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Romans 14:13, ESV

Why is it okay for the RCC to impose the observance of a day on its people? Doesn't this go contrary to Paul's teaching? What if a Catholic does not believe in Mary's Assumption or want to observe a day for it because he is unsure about it? What happens then?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I see something else here. Apparently the person who would not observe the Assumption of Mary must be "fully convinced in his own mind" regarding this decision. Now we as Catholics are to follow the dictates of our consience, but we are also obligated to see that our consience is "well-formed" in faith and morals. So then the question becomes: how does a Catholic with a well-formed conscience remain fully convinced in his own mind not to believe in the Assumption of Mary?

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> This is entirely different than Christ Himself, through His Mystical Body the Church, requiring certain disciplines

If you say so.

In the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Gee, Neal, I thought you'd be a tougher nut to crack!

 

[neal4christ]

Gee, Neal, I thought you'd be a tougher nut to crack!

Don't worry, I am. I was just respecting your understanding, while I disagree.

God Bless,
Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Neal,

Yes, Catholics are obligated to publicly worship together tomorrow; if one decides not to partake in the liturgy, is able to, knows that they should, and fully makes the decision for themself, then they are sinning; it is an act of disobedience to the authority of Jesus Christ who gave the power to bind and loose to the ministers of his kingdom. As Catholics, we don't just skip over these parts of Scripture; they actually mean something, and we don't glaze over them with nice fluffy bunnies. To bind and loose on earth means to bind and loose. The ministers of the Church have the authority to bind believers. That's what Jesus said, and that's what we believe.

 

[neal4christ]

As Catholics, we don't just skip over these parts of Scripture; they actually mean something, and we don't glaze over them with nice fluffy bunnies.

I don't either and I resent your insinuation. I don't just skip over Romans 14 myself, and I have a problem with the RCC requiring people to observe days and saying that they are sinning if they don't. To me, requiring people to observe a day is in direct contradiction to Romans 14 and Paul's teaching.

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. How do you glaze something with a nice fluffy bunny?

 

[Carson Weber]

Well, first, you take a nice fluffy bunny, then you cook it in boiling water for about five hours until it becomes a thick paste, and then you.. are you sure you want to know?

So Neal, if you don't glaze over Mt 16 with nice fluffy bunnies, then would you say that any person has the authority to bind you in any way today with regard to discipline? Do you owe obedience to anyone in any substantial way with regard to your Christian faith who was given this binding authority from Jesus Christ?

When Paul speaks of "days" in Romans 14, he isn't speaking about which days the Christians are to get together and worship; this is a matter of church discipline, which is something that can be bound or loosened by the ministers of the Church.

Paul was addressing those ordinances of the Old Law, from which Christians have been liberated by the blood of Jesus Christ. The jettisoning of long-practiced customs was traumatic for many Christians brought up under the Mosaic code and Paul is addressing this specific issue. These "days" are specifically Jewish festival days, not when the Christians are to gather and break bread. The Church teaches emphatically that we are no longer bound by the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law and that our allegiance to them has been broken through the death of Jesus Christ, who has brought us into a New Covenant. And, in the New Covenant, we have ministers who can decide when and where we'll gather to bread bread, fellowship, and share in the glorious truth of the Apostles, reading their memoirs in public.