Assurance of Salvation

I think there's a difference between a backslidden believer and an apostate.

 

Yeah, backslidden believers don't hang out on the baptist board :laugh:

 

Have you ever seen teenagers and the way so many of them feel about their parents? Does that mean they were never really their parents' child?

1 Corinthians 3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

Your Hebrew references and question, "So does are they saying that we can lose our salvation or reject it?"

I believe when we get into the book of Hebrews we have to understand the Jew in that day, and what they had to contend with.

The Epistle to the Hebrews purpose is:


1. To help them bridge to Christianity.
2. Prove the "mystery" revealed to Paul of this dispensation of Grace, which is the Eternal Purpose of God.
3. Show the difference between "grace" and "law.

There was so much that happened during the time of John the Baptist, Jesus, the earthly appointed Apostles, Pentecost, and Paul, the nation of Israel was thrown for a loop. What they had believed in the Law of Moses had been changed by the gospel of the "kingdom is at hand" that John the Baptist came preaching with the message of "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins".

Pentecost came (preview of the kingdom), but it could not come for Israel rejected Jesus as their King, the Messiah, and then refused Him as the High Priest. Then at the stoning of Stephen a year later they refused the Holy Ghost.

Those Hebrew references you posted of chapter 10, perhaps can be better explained by using chapter 6:4-6, the Battleground of we (some of us) Baptist, and the Arminians and Calvinists. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The saved Jews in that age had been "enlightened; had "tasted of the Holy Ghost", and if they fell away, they couldn't be "renewed again unto repentance. We are to remember the Jew is saved by faith, and the Gentile through faith. We know God's people had to endure until the end.

The writer to the Hebrew (which I believe to be Paul) in all his other Epistles address' both Gentile and Jew. But this book is only for those that come through the loins of Jacob, his twelve sons. This book is for our information, but is not written to we today, those in the Body of Christ.

We can see above the saved Jews had to change their mind from the Law of Moses, and the prophets to the "kingdom" gospel of John the Baptist, and in Luke 16:16. "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Now along comes Paul, with his gospel that Christ gave to Him from heaven for the Gentile (we can now enter the Temple, even the Holy of Holies), and the Jew can also be saved just as we, that is by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation.And in this salvation is Once Saved Always Saved.

The longer we hold to a belief the harder to change our mind, and it becomes closed even when we see the evidence right before our eyes. My dear mother who has passed away would never let go of the belief the Bible taught having a drink, even of wine was "sinful". She taught Sunday school for many years, knew the Bible mostly through the Baptist Sunday school quarterlies. Even (when she was in her 80's) when I showed her the children of God could take their tithe, when they couldn't get to the Temple, and turn it into money and do what ever their heart desired, as to buying cattle, buy wine, and/or hard liquor, or whatever, in a place supported by God -- she would not believe it.

So this is what Paul is facing. The Jews of the Pentecostal faith had already changed their mind once, so it was very hard for them to accept the gospel of Paul, the "grace commission" from God in heaven. So it was much harder for Peter, John, and James to accept for themselves, but knew Paul was the Apostle to the Gentile, but as we see in Galatians 2, those of Pentecost evidently stayed in their "kingdom gospel" of Jerusalem, with Peter and Barnabas trying their best to understand the "Christian" faith of the Gentiles of Antioch.

So in the book of Hebrews Paul writes to all Israel, but it will be easier for the Jew to switch directly from salvation by the grace of God by way of the Law and ordinances(The Pentecostal salvation is no longer available to them), to salvation by the Grace of God, through faith.

 

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Originally Posted by Marcia
I think there's a difference between a backslidden believer and an apostate.
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Sure is.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Dont you get the feeling the apostate were never saved.

 

Menageriekeeper,

What did the Apostate fall away from? FAITH, that’s where assurance comes from through belief in the Truth. My assurance: No one will ever convince me I do not have faith, not man, not the Devil, it is the truth. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” Through belief in Jesus Christ the Father gave me FAITH; if you know Jesus then you should know the Father also (John 14:7). I love the truth; God is Love and God is Truth, I am in Him by adoption in believing the Truth and thereby the works are His. More assurance: He gave me a Comforter in the Spirit of truth and said, “Let your heart not be troubled, ye believe in God, believe in Me also.” I DO BELIEVE, I asked through Jesus and the Father gave me the gift of FAITH and THAT is my ASSURANCE…FAITH! It’s not of me, it’s not my works, it is His and through His Glory of Grace in Jesus I received the Love of the Truth by belief.

This will lead directly into a free will vs. Calvinism issue if you haven’t noticed; as one who believes God created His creatures with a free will my assurance comes by believing the TRUTH in FAITH.

Since the issue of faith gets really deep in man’s philosophy trying to understand something that is a FREE gift of God to all that believe, articulating my thoughts on the subject would cause an ensuing battle to begin with a need of stepping/stomping on others systems around here and because of the time and heat involved, I just offered up the scripture. The scripture says what is says, and it doesn’t cause a difficulty for me in regards to assurance, I only have one system to hold on to FAITH!; so I will let some attempt to explain away the scripture, take the divide approach or if they choose settle it in their own hearts.

One of my assurance verses that bring me peace:

(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

BTW, Menageriekeeper, happy birthday!

 

Are you trying to argue the opposite by using the analogy of teens and their parents? I don't think it's valid. Teens are not "saved" and regenerated by their parents - their rebellion and anger is part of a sin nature. And teens can still love their parents even in this state.

What we're talking about are people saved and regenerated by the HS, no longer enemies of God. I know Christians who become angry with God, but I can't believe a regenerated person indwelt by the HS would hate God, have contempt for Christ and the Bible, and wage war on God and Christians as I've seen apostates do. I'm not talking anger - I'm talking enmity with God.

 

As for assurance of salvation, I think there are many passages, but here's on of the strongest:

raise: :Fish:

 

They are not guilty of those sins if they have faith. Now, If they blasphemy the HS then do they have true faith? I don’t think so; why would blasphemy be unforgivable?

Good scripture Marcia,

Got to get some work done…the secular type…will check later.

 

When someone is born from above, they are in the family of God. Just like teenagers, many saved people get angry at God, will state contempt for him, and shout, "I hate you!"

But, do they really?

 

Have you ever said to God "I hate you"?

I think the saved can sin but not a sin unto death. If someone kills or some horendous sin I just do not believe he/she was ever saved. I don't care how many times they had been ducked in the water.

 

Dunking has nothing to do with being saved, and thankfully, Scriptures disagree with you about whether or not a saved person can still sin. A saved person could fall under influences that could lead him to be a serial killer, and the best person in the world is still unsaved if he doesn't not accept the free gift that has been offered.

What must I do to be saved?

Believe plus nothing and you will be saved.

It doesn't say, "Believe and don't commit any horrendous sins", nor does it say, "Believe and produce fruit", nor does it say, "Believe and you may or may not be saved".

I think God means what he says and says what he means.

 

I think this is heresy and abominable, shameful.
I didn't say the saved could not sin but if you mean sin as a serial killer, then yes I am saying the saved cannot do that. If you were in my church and spouted off such things I personally would escort you out!!!!

I thought it said believe and be baptized. I think God means what he says and says what he means.

Thought you believed that to believe was works?

 

Well, you must hang out with different Christians than I do. I have not met any who hate God and have contempt for him or for Christ.

Are you talking about a believer saying this in a moment of despair or anger? If so, I'm not talking about that (though I have to say I have not heard that myself).

I'm talking about a deep and abiding hatred of God and contempt for his word -- a hatred so cold it could form icicles on your hair if you get close to the person.

 

I agree with you here. A perfect example would be David. He desired bathsheeba (lusted), stole another's man's wife (adultery), tried to deceive Uriah into covering up his sin by impregnating his wife (lying), and had Uriah sent to the front lines (murder). He was the "apple of God's eye" and even though he wasn't a serial killer, he was a serial sinner.

 

OK, so in your opinion, what's the magic line above which someone is saved and below which they're not? What works make that distinction?

 

Oh, and as to your "heresy" remark, how about if I simply let God's work speak for itself?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 16:31 Now they say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."

Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Yehowshua HaMoshiach, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 16:31 and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved--thou and thy house;'

Act 16:31 And, they, said—Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou, and thy house.

So, in the gospel according to Brother Bob, God's word is heresy.

(Boy, I can't wait for you to throw out Mark 16:16 as your "proof"!)

 

If I’m going to put “serial killers” on my list of sins that a saved person couldn’t do would that include two murdered people or would it have to be more, and would it have to be on separate occasions or could it be all at the same time?

How about people that say they hate God, special occasions maybe okay but for the really bad ones I wonder if it would be okay to just decide if they really believed now or maybe better to wait and see possibly if they were put to the test in a life or death situation that then they would cry out to God? Anyway, could some of them be demon possessed or something and they’ll probably never change?

I hope there’s not too many more things I will need to put on my list because this assessment thing is going to get complicated.