Assurance of Salvation

David was under the Law Covenant where they had concubines. I don't think we can do that today or at least my wife said not. :applause:

 

Hebrews, chapter 10

"38": Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

"39": But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Romans, chapter 8
"1": There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"2": For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

"3": For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

"4": That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"5": For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

"6": For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

"7": Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

"8": So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I guess I just believe a true Christian is a different kind of person than you do. I expect more out of him and so does God. Killing is of the flesh and according to God "you shall die" and that is not the natural death either.

I cannot imagine meeting at church with a congregation that was full of people who do the things you say they can do and all of you be of one mind and one accord and worship God. There are a lot of groups like that but I don't call them churches.

 

Again Bob this is your first mistake and it is costly. It doesn't matter what we believe. It only matters what the Bible says. And the Bible says that saved individuals (OT or NT it doesn't matter) are capable of some terrible things as one person described David - the fact that he was an OT character is of no significance.

The bottom line is the Bible teaches something totally different than what you believe, but you will not fall in line with the Bible because you guess you just believe whatever you want to believe.

What you expect out of a Christian means ZERO. Now God does expect Christians to die to self and to crucify the flesh and to make their bodies a living sacrifice and all those other things, but the Bible clearly shows that this may or may not happen. It is not a certainty like you want it to be. That's just the plain, simple teaching of Scripture, you can either believe it the way it is written or not.

Whoever said there was a church full of these type of folks? No one said there was a church full of serial killers that were fellowship and worshipping God.

And on top of that no one said that people that are in open and active rebellion against God are to be welcomed into fellowship, but there are very few churches these days that actually practice church discipline. Because if they did they would have to disfellowship a good number of folks and that would hurt the attendance numbers and we know it would hurt the offering plate and well if people in the community got wind of that then no one would come to our church and so we better just let them be the way they are.

That's the sad state that the church is in today

 

It don't matter what we believe!! A statement like that is beyond understanding for it is what we believe that matters. We have the Scriptures and the debate between you and I is enough to tell the whole world it does matter what we believe for one of us is wrong and maybe both but a man lives by his own convictions and you don't like mine and I don't believe yours. You say the Bible says just the opposite of what I believe but I don't know anyone except you and maybe your friend James that believe the soul is "born again" and not have eternal life and the Bible certainly does not teach that.

Well if you were in the church I pastor I would say that you would have a different mind of whether what I say is ZERO!

You said the saved could become serial killers and adulterers etc. If that is true then according to you the church could be full of such. If I have to go get the quote I will but its only a page or two back.

Paul sure would have a talk with you wouldn't he?

 

Are you saying being Baptized is required for salvation?

What is interesting is that what you think and what God thinks is two different things (thank goodness). Sure God does not want us to sin, but obviously it happens. Have you not read about all of the stuff that was going on at the churches that Paul admonished? I seriously doubt that all of these members were simply lost or Paul would just tell the church to kick them out (and in some cases he did imply that), but in general the churches were full of sinners.

There are an awful lot of perfect people on this board who must not feel they sin. In God's eyes sin is sin and sin is like a chain--you sin you break a link. In your eyes you are judging which sin is worse---what does God say about which sin is worse?

How much sin did it take for Adam to cause sin to enter the human race? Did he murder people? Did he rape and pillage? Or did he eat an apple that he was told not to touch?

When you start to get legalistic concerning which sins are worth kicking someone out and which aren't or how many of this sin or that, then you start becoming the judge.

There are obvious cases such as a person living in adultry continuing to ignore it and ignore church counseling, but even then we must be careful. Judges like us have a tendency to have that log in our eye when we look at other people. I know for a fact that when I start judging people myself is when I start noticing that my sin seems to increase and my closeness to God becomes somewhat less. When I overlook these people and put them in God's hands and quit being judgmental towards them I find that I become closer to God.

Your opinion on how much sin a person can do and be saved is so subjective that it is ridiculous. Only God knows the heart.

Do you NOT believe in once saved always saved? Do you feel God will dump you as his child if you do wrong? If so, just exactly how much sin does it take for him to make the decision to divorce you as your father?

I adopted my daughters. Whatever they do, they are always my daughters and believe me they are not perfect and one has even turned on me, but she is STILL my daughter.

It amazes me how we Christians (and Baptists) are accepting a works faith and starting to base a lot of judgement on a person's works (including Baptism). True there will be fruit of the vine, but righteous judgement is related to making decisions based on legal crimes and not whether or not Joe has reached a certain level on his sin thermometer.

 

I am saying the Holy Ghost baptism is neccesary yes.

 

You talk about what I believe and what God believes is two different things and then you proceed to tell me what you believe.

This is what Paul really taught not what you say.

1 Timothy, chapter 6
1": Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

"2": And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

"3": If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

"4": He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

"5": Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

"6": But godliness with contentment is great gain.



2 Thessalonians, chapter 3

"6": Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

I thank God I have the Scriptures to teach me what to believe. I would like to know what I posted that you don't believe?

Again, you councel me not to judge but if it goes a little farther then you also will judge. I didn't say anywhere what I would put someone out for but one and that was a serial killer. Would you keep a serial killer in your church?

Apparently your Bible has had the book of James removed?

 

I didn't really go into what I believed; most of my answers were in response to your remarks.

You took less than 1% of Paul's letters to make your point. Read the rest.

Yes, my Bible has James, it also has a lot of other books including one about a king who committed adultry and a LOT of other major sins, but was obviously one of God's favorites.

My whole point is, it appears that God is much easier to forgive than many people who post here.

Would I kick out a serial murderer? You failed to state the circumstances. If he is still a serial murderer then he would no doubt be in jail (if we knew about it); would YOU go to the jail and witness to him?

Would you be the first to accept his request for forgiveness?

My whole point here is more concerned about this whole thread; because we are discussing Assurance of Salvation.

By the way, what has your quote from Timothy have to do with that when it clearly says bretheren? Just because you seperate youself from a habitual sinner doesn't mean they are not saved.

Do you believe a person can loose their salvation?

 

Well, everyone who is saved is baptized into (not by) the Holy Spirit. (There is no such thing in Scriptures as the Holy Ghost, per se; the word "ghost" is only used twice in Scriptures and never in conjunction with the word "holy".)

Well, it does matter what we believe. We need to believe what the Scriptures (all of them put together) say.

That almost made me laugh. We've used the book of James over and over to show you the error of what you're teaching.

I believe that JJump specifically said that he should be kicked out of the assembly. That has zero to do with whether of not he has accepted the Lord Jesus as his savior; it has to do with his works.

As you've shown quite frequently, what you espouse is not what God teaches, and you don't seem to care when your teaching contradict Scripture.

Here's one list of local churches that have ears to hear and that teach the truth of God's word:

Kingdom Truch local assemblies

If you actually bother clicking the link, you will see that the majority of them are either Baptist churches, or were Baptist churches in the past that have changed their name to "Bible Church" when the Baptist churches started abandoning the truths about the Kingdom and the salvation of the soul many years ago.

 

I just thought this one quote bore repeating.

 

Phillip; that is the point what is the remarks of mine that don't sit well with you and maybe we could discuss them as Christians.

If you have observed my posts on here you would of known I have read them all and studied them for years and years.

Why do you all have to go back under the Law to get an example to use. They had "eye for and eye" also but not today. They had circumcisim but not today. They had concubines but my wife said no today, etc.

Now this is a good point for He is the only one who can forgive sin.

I guess we will differ here for I don't believe a person can lose their Salvation but if someone murders another I don't believe they ever had Salvation and I have Scripture for it that He is able to deliver us all the way to Heaven.

They had adulterers among them and Paul said to withdraw and with such a one not to walk. Fornicators such as not mentioned among the Gentiles with their father's wife. Again, I for sure don't believe they ever had Salvation but if I happen to be wrong then the Scripture says if such a one did taste of the Heavenly fruits and were to fall to renew them unto repentance again is impossible.

Would I go to the prison to see someone like that.
Yes, I probably above most would go for there was a time I came so close to being among them "but by the Grace of God there go I".

I doubt if we disagree as much as you think Phillip for I believe it takes the Spirit of God to lead someone to repentance. I believe "by Grace through faith" are you saved. Its just I believe time and chance has happened unto all.

 

Matthew, chapter 3

"11": I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Those are not my words. If you going to rebuke me at least get my sayings right.

I not going to talk about JJ here, I speak to him face to face or computer to computer. He was supposed to still be saved and I deny that for sure.

That is a blanket statement without merit. If you disagree and think I am using something except Scripture then say which one it is. I am very concious whether I am using Scripture or not. I do not like a hypocrit at all.

I have never seen you quote; "faith without works is dead". I must of missed it, sometimes I read to fast. No wonder you laughed if you have used it.

Are Baptist or were Baptist. I guess that about does it for that link. Baptist may have abandoned it but God sends the angels for the souls of those who die in the Lord so he has not abandoned it. Thank God for that. I would be sad if I thought that Jesus had give me His blood to wash my sins away and redeemed my soul and promised by the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead to raise me from the dead also and if I didn't have eternal life. What a sad case indeed. Tell you what, you go to your church and I will go to mine. Blessings,

 

Unless your beliefs match that of Scriptural teachings then they don't matter. If your beliefs match Scripture then you don't have anything to worry about.

And you have been shown over and over and over that your beliefs don't match Scriptural teaching. So you just take that for what it is worth.

If you want to continue holding those beliefs that makes no difference to me. I'm just trying to show you some things and you have no desire to even look into the matter.

Brother Bob just because you can't see it or don't want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. It is clearly there!

Brother Bob I am EXTREMELY thankful that I am not in your church. You have a very controlling attitude that I don't think is becoming of a shepherd.

I suppose in the sorry state the church is in today that is possible, although I think it would be hard for a entire group of serial killers to congregate without the police finding them

But just for kicks and giggles even if there was a group such as this it doesn't have anything to do with their eternal salvation. Why does NO WORKS seem to just pass you by?

Are you saying that Paul was just worried about nickles and noses? I hardly doubt it!

 

False! It is you who are wrong and posting things not even in the Bible such as the soul being saved but does not have eternal salvation.

Just told you that I don't believe you.

 

We're not talking about who is saved and who isn't, but assurance of salvation.

As far as my remarks on hating God go, I was talking about apostates because someone else brought up some Hebrews scriptures and asked about them. I said that those passages are about apostates and from that point on, I was saying an apostate, by definition in the Bible, is one "who was never with us." So an apostate is not someone who was saved but who seemed to be saved and then turned away openly against God. And I was pointing out a difference between apostates and backslidden Christians (some people believe there is no such thing but I do).

If you go back and read the posts in sequence, you'll see what I mean.

 

Bob you have been shown Scriptural evidence time and time and time again. Do you want me to quote them for you again?

 

You don't have them

 

I certainly can't say that I disagree with you on this. I think it is "possible" because the blood of Jesus washes sins, past, present and future clean; but, I have to agree that certain sins are far beyond what you would think that a Christian would be capable of doing.

I certainly undertand there can be Christians who have had situations occur such as brain damage or tumors that have caused their entire personality to change. There are always exceptions and this could be one.

I think we do believe much closer than I first believed. I was misunderstnding some of the answers to your statements and I appologize for that.

I do have to say that I agree that a person who continues in a life of obvious sin have probably not been saved in the first place.

 

Thanks Phillip; I agree with your statements just now.

 

Then, you're reading too fast. JJump and I both have quoted this many times.

This paragraph made no sense. But, I'm assuming that you didn't bother clicking the link. I gave you a link with a list of several churches that preach and teach Kingdom truths, most of which are Baptist, and then you followed that up with something that makes no grammatical sense to me.

1 Corinthians 12:13:

KJV: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Mat 3:11 YLT `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

(The Greek word for "ghost" only appears in Matthew 14:25 and Mark 6:49, and ironically, the KJV translators chose to translated it as "spirit" both times.)

In considering baptism, keep in mind the one who is baptizing, the one being baptized and the element into which one is being baptized. In the preceding passage, John was the baptizer, repentant sinners were the ones being baptized and water was the element into which they were baptized. This is similar to Christian baptism.

Spirit baptism finds Jesus the Christ doing the baptizing, believers being baptized and the Holy Spirit the element into which they are being baptized. There has been much confusion caused by the translation of “en” as “by” and not “in”. We are all baptized into the Holy Spirit, not by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit baptizes no one. However, Jesus the Christ baptizes all believers into the Holy Spirit; they are one body.

John said that not only would Jesus the Christ baptize in the Holy Spirit, but He would also baptize in fire. This will happen at the end of the age in connection with the Judgment Seat of Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 tells of the trial of a Christian’s works by fire. Mark 9:49 tells us that all Christians shall be salted with fire; that is, we shall be purified, sterilized or refined. Revelation 2:11 promises that the overcomer shall not be hurt (strong double negative with the first aorist, passive, subjunctive of αδικεω; to act unjustly), of the second death (the second death is the everlasting lake of fire; Rev 20:6,14; 21:8). Do not confuse this baptism in fire with purgatory, because it has to do only with Christians after the rapture of the saints.

The baptizing work of the Holy Spirit did not occur in the Old Testament. Even in Acts 1:5, it is a future event, but with Acts 11:15; we are told that it began at Pentecost. It is unique to the church age.