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At-any-moment return of Christ?
- Thread starter StefanM
- Start date
Mel Miller
New Member
Helen and Linda,
I agree with you about the Covenent yet to be
made with a remnant of Israel when Messiah
returns.
Since this thread is dealing with the basis for
an "any-moment" rapture, and you do not believe
Matt.24:15-36 includes a reference to angels
taking part in the Rapture, it is wrong to say that Jesus refers to an any-moment rapture when He says "no one knows the day or the hour".
Since "No one knows the Day or hour of the second coming," you must acknowledge that Matt.
24:36 is NOT a basis for your belief. Yet that
is the main text for a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!!
Jesus says that Day occurs *after* the great
tribulation, not before.
You need a Scripture outside of Matt.24:36
to support a Pre-Trib Rapture!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
I agree with you about the Covenent yet to be
made with a remnant of Israel when Messiah
returns.
Since this thread is dealing with the basis for
an "any-moment" rapture, and you do not believe
Matt.24:15-36 includes a reference to angels
taking part in the Rapture, it is wrong to say that Jesus refers to an any-moment rapture when He says "no one knows the day or the hour".
Since "No one knows the Day or hour of the second coming," you must acknowledge that Matt.
24:36 is NOT a basis for your belief. Yet that
is the main text for a Pre-Trib Rapture!!!!
Jesus says that Day occurs *after* the great
tribulation, not before.
You need a Scripture outside of Matt.24:36
to support a Pre-Trib Rapture!!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
LadyEagle,
Thanks for your "explanation" as it gives me
opportunity to comment on Jesus "gathering
all Believers together above on the last day"!
quote from Linda:
------------------------------------------------
Matt.24:36 is not the main text for belief in a pre-Trib Rapture. Thought I'd clear that up.
_______________________________________________
The earliest texts on the time of the Rapture
are Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 in which Jesus reveals that HE HIMSELF will "gather the Elect from earth to heaven" and at the same time He will also "send the angels to gather them out
of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavenS"! Together, this is the clearest Rapture passage because it reveals the role of Angels
follows the initial act of Jesus.
This "gathering of all Believers from earth to
heaven on the last day" is effectively *deleted*
in three ways by Scofieldites, of whom I was one
from 60 to 72 years ago.
First, the Elect are claimed to be Jews only.
This either means Jesus "gathers unbelieving
Jews from earth to heaven" OR, if believing
Jews, He discriminates between Jews and Gentiles because believing Gentiles are "left behind".
Second, the Jews are said to be the Elect "re-gathered to Israel" instead of "from earth to heaven"; and then, AS THE TRIBES OF EARTH MOURN, these Jews "gathered from the earth and from
all extremities of the heavens" are said to be also among the Remnant restored to Israel.
Third, Scofield departs from the hermeneutic
principle of interpreting words "literally if
it makes sense" by changing "gather above" to
a "re-gathering" of Jews instead of the initial "gathering together above" of Saints!
Paul agrees with Jesus concerning the "gathering
together above" to meet Jesus at the Synagogue in the Sky. Paul uses the noun form, Synagog,
with epi added for the destination. 2 Thess.2:1.
Jesus uses the verb form, with epi added for the action; first by Him (from earth to heaven) and then by the Angels (from all extremities of the heavens).
Between the act of Jesus in "gathering the Saints" from the earth and that of the Angels
to complete the "gathering to Himself", the Jews
are the ones "left behind" and "mourn and pray
to escape all these things so they might prevail in standing before the Son of Man". Zech.12:10;
Matt.24:30 (then the Angels gather in 24:31);
Rev.1:7; Luke 21:36.
To claim the Elect are Jews rather than Saints
distorts the truth of Paul that "Jesus Christ
is coming with ALL the Saints" and contradicts
the word of the Lamb that those "with Him are the called ones . . . the Elect and Faithful"!
I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Thanks for your "explanation" as it gives me
opportunity to comment on Jesus "gathering
all Believers together above on the last day"!
quote from Linda:
------------------------------------------------
Matt.24:36 is not the main text for belief in a pre-Trib Rapture. Thought I'd clear that up.
_______________________________________________
The earliest texts on the time of the Rapture
are Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 in which Jesus reveals that HE HIMSELF will "gather the Elect from earth to heaven" and at the same time He will also "send the angels to gather them out
of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavenS"! Together, this is the clearest Rapture passage because it reveals the role of Angels
follows the initial act of Jesus.
This "gathering of all Believers from earth to
heaven on the last day" is effectively *deleted*
in three ways by Scofieldites, of whom I was one
from 60 to 72 years ago.
First, the Elect are claimed to be Jews only.
This either means Jesus "gathers unbelieving
Jews from earth to heaven" OR, if believing
Jews, He discriminates between Jews and Gentiles because believing Gentiles are "left behind".
Second, the Jews are said to be the Elect "re-gathered to Israel" instead of "from earth to heaven"; and then, AS THE TRIBES OF EARTH MOURN, these Jews "gathered from the earth and from
all extremities of the heavens" are said to be also among the Remnant restored to Israel.
Third, Scofield departs from the hermeneutic
principle of interpreting words "literally if
it makes sense" by changing "gather above" to
a "re-gathering" of Jews instead of the initial "gathering together above" of Saints!
Paul agrees with Jesus concerning the "gathering
together above" to meet Jesus at the Synagogue in the Sky. Paul uses the noun form, Synagog,
with epi added for the destination. 2 Thess.2:1.
Jesus uses the verb form, with epi added for the action; first by Him (from earth to heaven) and then by the Angels (from all extremities of the heavens).
Between the act of Jesus in "gathering the Saints" from the earth and that of the Angels
to complete the "gathering to Himself", the Jews
are the ones "left behind" and "mourn and pray
to escape all these things so they might prevail in standing before the Son of Man". Zech.12:10;
Matt.24:30 (then the Angels gather in 24:31);
Rev.1:7; Luke 21:36.
To claim the Elect are Jews rather than Saints
distorts the truth of Paul that "Jesus Christ
is coming with ALL the Saints" and contradicts
the word of the Lamb that those "with Him are the called ones . . . the Elect and Faithful"!
I Thess.3:13; Rev.17:14.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Benjamin,
I received an E-mail this week from Charles
Colson who has branded you a "Scofieldite"!
Sorry, I meant no offense because, except
for the notes in Scofield and my teaching
under the Archbishop of Dispensationalism,
Harry Ironside himself in the forties, I
may never have known that Israel must be
restored as the "apple of God's eye" !!
Will you please forgive me? I refuse to
accept the denunciations that Charles
Coleman is making against those who hold
to the views of Scofield.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
I received an E-mail this week from Charles
Colson who has branded you a "Scofieldite"!
Sorry, I meant no offense because, except
for the notes in Scofield and my teaching
under the Archbishop of Dispensationalism,
Harry Ironside himself in the forties, I
may never have known that Israel must be
restored as the "apple of God's eye" !!
Will you please forgive me? I refuse to
accept the denunciations that Charles
Coleman is making against those who hold
to the views of Scofield.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Mel Miller
New Member
Benjamin,
I mis-spelled Charles Coleson the second time.
If you are interested in what he is promoting
I think I can send you a copy of his diatribe.
Mel Miller
I mis-spelled Charles Coleson the second time.
If you are interested in what he is promoting
I think I can send you a copy of his diatribe.
Mel Miller
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I thought his name was Charles Colson.
Mel,
I don’t believe there’s much possibility of an any moment rapture and wouldn’t care to own a Scofield Bible; I just hadn’t heard that phrase before and thought it funny.
ME!
I don’t believe there’s much possibility of an any moment rapture and wouldn’t care to own a Scofield Bible; I just hadn’t heard that phrase before and thought it funny.I’m in agreement with you that the elect are not only Jews.
Certainly, and I’ve probably heard worse.
Don’t know if I’d be interested or not but would give it a look. Thanks
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Jesus said He would return within that generation when Israel became a nation. The key word there is 'within'. Yes, there is an any moment return.
Scripture please.
If what you say is true then imminence was not a posiblity until 1948 therefore the NT writers could not have been teaching imminence.
Scripture please.
If what you say is true then imminence was not a posiblity until 1948 therefore the NT writers could not have been teaching imminence. </font>[/QUOTE]What you say is "True", Paul gave some "Conditions" which were to be met "BEFORE" the rapture occurred.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
1. there come a falling away first,
2. and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
But there were "other conditions" that also had to be met.
1. end of six days
2. Israel restored as a Nation.
"If" the earth was going to last "Six days", the seventh being the Day of rest",
and the "generation" who saw Israel restored being the "last generation",
then Israel could only be restored "WITHIN" a generation of the "End of the sixth day",
1948 is well within that time frame.
By distinguishing between the "parables of the Fig Trees", HIS/HER Branch, the KJ translators actually "prophecied" 400 years in advance "WHEN" Israel would be "restored" as a Nation.
But don't tell the KJO "bashers".
The "disciples" ask Jesus when Israel would be restored and he said it wasn't for them to know.
Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons,
Daniel's book wasn't to be open to understanding until the "last Generation".
Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
God only "reveals" to each generation whatever pertains to that generation on a "need to know" bases.
"ALL" the conditions required by scripture have now been met, the next thing on the "Agenda" is the "Feast of trumpet" or "Rapture".
Matt 24 is written to the "JEW", Israel, "AFTER" the rapture and during the trib period, it has nothing to do with the Gentiles, i.e. Church,
The Rapture is the "Day of Christ", (Pre trib) Jesus is the "Bridegroom", coming only for his "Bride". (church)
Jesus's "Return" is the "Day of the Lord". (post trib) Jesus is "lord of Lords".
Matt 24 refers to the "Day of the Lord", not "Christ".
Mel Miller
New Member
Me4Him,
Since you are convinced Matt.24:36 cannot refer
to the "unknown" day of the Rapture of the Church, what verse "outside" of the Olivet Discourse is it that teaches an "any-moment
gathering of the saints from earth to heaven"?
The reason I ask is that no one can disprove
that Mark 13:24-27, together with Matt.24:31, describes the Rapture!!
And since, IMO, Jesus should be expected to
describe the Rapture in such detail, and it
occurs on "one of the days after the great tribulation," the Rapture will occur at
"any-moment" after the armies are gathered
to Armageddon and the Beast kills the Two
Witnesses. Jesus will not come to avenge
their blood until the last martyr is killed.
Again, the Armageddon context is the exact
time Jesus says He is "coming as a thief"!
His coming will be so "imminent" in that
context that NO other sign will be expected
or needed.
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he
that watches and keeps his garments". Re.16:15.
I know, you have compartmentalized His coming
"for" and "with" the saints. Armageddon time
is when "Jesus Christ is coming WITH ALL
the Saints", including Tribulation Saints.
Paul says that "God will bring those who *sleep
in Jesus* WITH Him" and that includes Martyrs
who come out of the great tribulation. So He
is coming "at any moment" in the context of
those who survive and are watching for Him when the armies are gathered to Armageddon.
That is the time, "after the great tribulation",
in which Jesus said "He will gather the Elect
from earth to heaven (Mark 13:27) and He will send the angels to gather them out of all extremities of the heavens" while the Jews
"mourn and are begging to stand before Him". Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:36; Rev.1:7; Zech.12:10.
The only way you can avoid the Rapture "at any
moment" after the armies gather to Armageddon
is to deny the Elect are Saints whom Paul says
will ALL come with Jesus. Jesus also states
the "called and Elect (Greek) and faithful will come with the Lamb to destroy His enemies". I Thess.3:13 Rev.17:14.
Even Daniel 7:22-27 describes the Saints coming with the Son of Man at the "End of the 3 1/2 times" to destroy the Beast.
Paul describes Christ coming as a thief in the Rapture on the Day of the Lord which begins with the total darkness of the sun from noon (Amos 8:9) until evening. "On that day He will be king in all the earth". Zech.14:7,9.
"Those who overcome to the END will sit on
thrones and rule the nations with Christ".
That's His message to the Church. Rev.2:26.
On that Day Jeus will "rescue" many Jews also who would not be able to escape "the hour of trial coming as a snare on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" after He appears. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-36.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Since you are convinced Matt.24:36 cannot refer
to the "unknown" day of the Rapture of the Church, what verse "outside" of the Olivet Discourse is it that teaches an "any-moment
gathering of the saints from earth to heaven"?
The reason I ask is that no one can disprove
that Mark 13:24-27, together with Matt.24:31, describes the Rapture!!
And since, IMO, Jesus should be expected to
describe the Rapture in such detail, and it
occurs on "one of the days after the great tribulation," the Rapture will occur at
"any-moment" after the armies are gathered
to Armageddon and the Beast kills the Two
Witnesses. Jesus will not come to avenge
their blood until the last martyr is killed.
Again, the Armageddon context is the exact
time Jesus says He is "coming as a thief"!
His coming will be so "imminent" in that
context that NO other sign will be expected
or needed.
"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he
that watches and keeps his garments". Re.16:15.
I know, you have compartmentalized His coming
"for" and "with" the saints. Armageddon time
is when "Jesus Christ is coming WITH ALL
the Saints", including Tribulation Saints.
Paul says that "God will bring those who *sleep
in Jesus* WITH Him" and that includes Martyrs
who come out of the great tribulation. So He
is coming "at any moment" in the context of
those who survive and are watching for Him when the armies are gathered to Armageddon.
That is the time, "after the great tribulation",
in which Jesus said "He will gather the Elect
from earth to heaven (Mark 13:27) and He will send the angels to gather them out of all extremities of the heavens" while the Jews
"mourn and are begging to stand before Him". Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:36; Rev.1:7; Zech.12:10.
The only way you can avoid the Rapture "at any
moment" after the armies gather to Armageddon
is to deny the Elect are Saints whom Paul says
will ALL come with Jesus. Jesus also states
the "called and Elect (Greek) and faithful will come with the Lamb to destroy His enemies". I Thess.3:13 Rev.17:14.
Even Daniel 7:22-27 describes the Saints coming with the Son of Man at the "End of the 3 1/2 times" to destroy the Beast.
Paul describes Christ coming as a thief in the Rapture on the Day of the Lord which begins with the total darkness of the sun from noon (Amos 8:9) until evening. "On that day He will be king in all the earth". Zech.14:7,9.
"Those who overcome to the END will sit on
thrones and rule the nations with Christ".
That's His message to the Church. Rev.2:26.
On that Day Jeus will "rescue" many Jews also who would not be able to escape "the hour of trial coming as a snare on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" after He appears. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-36.
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
Then you agree scripture does not say a REgathering is to occur? You can't have a regathering in the 1st century if they are already gathered.
Now re-read his statement:
Jesus said He would return within that generation when Israel became a nation.
When did the Israel of Paul's day become a nation? If Israel was already a nation in Paul's time, then it wasn't an imminent event in the 1st century.
Mel
The "RAPTURE" and "SECOND COMING" are "TWO" totally different events, that are "COMPLETE OPPOSITES" of the other.
Rapture....................Second Coming
Jesus reaps.....................Angel reap (wheat/Tares)
no one sees Jesus.................Everyone sees Jesus
Returns to heaven.............stays on earth
in the air...................... on the earth
rightous leave earth............wicked leave earth
pre trib .......................post trib
The fact that the earth is in a "literal darkness" prior to the second coming escape the attention of most.
Mr 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
The "Holy Ghost" (Spirit) is the "light of the world", once removed, (rapture) the world goes into a "Spiritual Darkness" that evenually is manifested by the "literal darkness".
The "Spiritual" is always manifested here in the "physical world",
the "SUN" (Jesus) shall be darkened, and the MOON" (an assemble of God's people) shall not give her (spiritual) light,
This "Spiritual darkness" is "God's Indignation" by allowing the AC dominion over the whole earth.
There are "Many other reasons" why the rapture "MUST BE" pre trib, so read the link.
And you'll have to learn what the "SYMBOLS" represents to understand the scriptures.
The "RAPTURE" and "SECOND COMING" are "TWO" totally different events, that are "COMPLETE OPPOSITES" of the other.
Rapture....................Second Coming
Jesus reaps.....................Angel reap (wheat/Tares)
no one sees Jesus.................Everyone sees Jesus
Returns to heaven.............stays on earth
in the air...................... on the earth
rightous leave earth............wicked leave earth
pre trib .......................post trib
The fact that the earth is in a "literal darkness" prior to the second coming escape the attention of most.
Mr 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
The "Holy Ghost" (Spirit) is the "light of the world", once removed, (rapture) the world goes into a "Spiritual Darkness" that evenually is manifested by the "literal darkness".
The "Spiritual" is always manifested here in the "physical world",
the "SUN" (Jesus) shall be darkened, and the MOON" (an assemble of God's people) shall not give her (spiritual) light,
This "Spiritual darkness" is "God's Indignation" by allowing the AC dominion over the whole earth.
There are "Many other reasons" why the rapture "MUST BE" pre trib, so read the link.
And you'll have to learn what the "SYMBOLS" represents to understand the scriptures.
Mel Miller
New Member
Me4Him,
I submit this quote is not what Jesus taught:
____________________________________________
The "RAPTURE" and "SECOND COMING" are "TWO" totally different events, that are "COMPLETE OPPOSITES" of the other.
____________________________________________
1. Jesus taught that He will reap the "tares
first" and will send the angels to collect
what He will have reaped. Matt.13:30-4.
2. He taught that both tares and wheat will
be gathered at the "end of the age".
3. He taught that everyone will see Him.
4. You are correct that no one will "see" Him
gather the Elect from earth to heaven because
this happens, as well as sending the angels
to complete the gathering from the air, before
anyone realizes what has happened! Mark 13:27!
Angels "gather the saints"; but "collect" the
grapes of wrath figuratively "to the winepress" after Jesus reaps them as well as the tares of the earth. The grapes are already "gathered" at the time of reaping. Rev.14:14-19.
5. Jesus will return to heaven after raising
up "every believer on the last day" because
the Martyrs must "serve God in the temple of
heaven for 1000 years"! John 6:40; Rev.7:15-17.
6. Jesus will reign IN heaven as well as on
the earth during the Millennium. But those
who survive the G. T. will "reign ON the earth".
He will "shepherd" the Martyrs in heaven and
He will rule the nations with a "rod of iron".
Rev.7:15-17; Rev.2:25-27.
7. Yes, we will always "be with the Lord," but
He has the prerogative/power to bring the Martyrs to heaven to "reign WITH Him" there (Rev.20:4) while also reigning over the earth.
8. Jesus is the only one who reveals that He
will not only gather us up to meet Him in
heaven; but that He will send the angels to
complete the journey, as Paul says, "unto
Himself" at the Synagogue in the Sky. 2 Th.2:1.
9. Jesus nowhere teaches that He will rapture
believers before the tribulation; but He pinpoints the time that He "raises up every believer" (the last day) and "gathers the Elect from earth to heaven", i.e., on one of the days
immediately after the great tribulation. Mark
13:24. John verfies this in Rev.10:6-7 when
"time shall be no longer during THE (3 1/2)
DAYS whenever the last trump is about to sound"!
Only at the 7th Trumpet is it the "appointed
(kairos) time to judge the dead (resurrection)
and reward the saints (rapture) and destroy the
destroyers of earth (Armageddons are gathered
before Christ comes as a thief". Rev.16:15-16)!
10. The "last trump" sounds once for Christ's
Coronation, a 2nd time to "gather the saints
from earth to heaven" and the 3rd time when He
sends the angels to complete the gathering "at the sound of a great trumpet"! Matt.24:31.
Your remark that, because of the darkness, the
second coming "escapes most" is exactly the
opposite of Rev.1:7 which states that "every
eye will see Him coming and the tribes of earth will wail". Among them are the Jews who realize
suddenly that their "redemption and kingdom
are near". The Elect Saints already know it;
so they do not need to "keep praying to escape
and to prevail in standing before the Son of
Man"! Those who mourn will be "kept alive". Luke 21:28,31; Luke 17:30-33.
IMO, your chart has nothing to do with the
above ten facts!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net
I submit this quote is not what Jesus taught:
____________________________________________
The "RAPTURE" and "SECOND COMING" are "TWO" totally different events, that are "COMPLETE OPPOSITES" of the other.
____________________________________________
1. Jesus taught that He will reap the "tares
first" and will send the angels to collect
what He will have reaped. Matt.13:30-4.
2. He taught that both tares and wheat will
be gathered at the "end of the age".
3. He taught that everyone will see Him.
4. You are correct that no one will "see" Him
gather the Elect from earth to heaven because
this happens, as well as sending the angels
to complete the gathering from the air, before
anyone realizes what has happened! Mark 13:27!
Angels "gather the saints"; but "collect" the
grapes of wrath figuratively "to the winepress" after Jesus reaps them as well as the tares of the earth. The grapes are already "gathered" at the time of reaping. Rev.14:14-19.
5. Jesus will return to heaven after raising
up "every believer on the last day" because
the Martyrs must "serve God in the temple of
heaven for 1000 years"! John 6:40; Rev.7:15-17.
6. Jesus will reign IN heaven as well as on
the earth during the Millennium. But those
who survive the G. T. will "reign ON the earth".
He will "shepherd" the Martyrs in heaven and
He will rule the nations with a "rod of iron".
Rev.7:15-17; Rev.2:25-27.
7. Yes, we will always "be with the Lord," but
He has the prerogative/power to bring the Martyrs to heaven to "reign WITH Him" there (Rev.20:4) while also reigning over the earth.
8. Jesus is the only one who reveals that He
will not only gather us up to meet Him in
heaven; but that He will send the angels to
complete the journey, as Paul says, "unto
Himself" at the Synagogue in the Sky. 2 Th.2:1.
9. Jesus nowhere teaches that He will rapture
believers before the tribulation; but He pinpoints the time that He "raises up every believer" (the last day) and "gathers the Elect from earth to heaven", i.e., on one of the days
immediately after the great tribulation. Mark
13:24. John verfies this in Rev.10:6-7 when
"time shall be no longer during THE (3 1/2)
DAYS whenever the last trump is about to sound"!
Only at the 7th Trumpet is it the "appointed
(kairos) time to judge the dead (resurrection)
and reward the saints (rapture) and destroy the
destroyers of earth (Armageddons are gathered
before Christ comes as a thief". Rev.16:15-16)!
10. The "last trump" sounds once for Christ's
Coronation, a 2nd time to "gather the saints
from earth to heaven" and the 3rd time when He
sends the angels to complete the gathering "at the sound of a great trumpet"! Matt.24:31.
Your remark that, because of the darkness, the
second coming "escapes most" is exactly the
opposite of Rev.1:7 which states that "every
eye will see Him coming and the tribes of earth will wail". Among them are the Jews who realize
suddenly that their "redemption and kingdom
are near". The Elect Saints already know it;
so they do not need to "keep praying to escape
and to prevail in standing before the Son of
Man"! Those who mourn will be "kept alive". Luke 21:28,31; Luke 17:30-33.
IMO, your chart has nothing to do with the
above ten facts!
Mel Miller Junior www.lastday.net