Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

[BobRyan]

I quote Adam Clarke as follows -

Adam Clarke –
Verse 14. Unto two thousand and three hundred days
Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. If we date these years from the vision of the he-goat, (Alexander's invading Asia,) this was A.M. 3670, B.C. 334; and two thousand three hundred years from that time

Then ... innexplicably Walter answers

Of course most commentators will agree with me in computing the 2300 evening and morning sacrifices to a certain number of DAYS but where are the commentators that agree with you that those "days" are to be interpreted a day for a year and 2300 YEARS??????????

Obviously Walter finds no text at all that calls the daily sacrifice the "evening and morning sacrifice". No not even one.


I also point to a number of Bible scholars that admit to the blatantly obvious fact that the evening morning terminology of Dan 8 signifies the DAY - as we find Genesis 1 stating that evening and morning is one day. Thus instead of 1150 days - they apply the correct evening morning terminology - as a single day - and so 2300 days not 1150 days.

John Gill

unto two thousand and three hundred days;
or so many "mornings" and "evenings" F8; which shows that not so many years, as Jacchiades, and others, are meant; but natural days, consisting of twenty four hours, and which make six years, three months, and eighteen days;


Quote:
Geneva Study Bible
8:14 And z he said unto me, Unto a two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(z) Christ answered me for the comfort of the Church.
(a) That is, until so many natural days have passed, which make six years, and three and a half months:


Quote:
Matthew Henry
(2.) The answer given to this question, Daniel 8:14. Christ gives instruction to the holy angels, for they are our fellow-servants; but here the answer was given to Daniel, because for his sake the question was asked: He said unto me. God sometimes gives in great favours to his people, in answer to the enquiries and requests of their friends for them. Now, [1.] Christ assures him that the trouble shall end; it shall continue 2300 days and no longer, so many evenings and mornings (so the word is),


Adam Clarke simply adds one more step of consistency by applying the same "prophetic day" - in "day for year" fashion that almost all Bible scholars admit for 490 days (72 weeks) of Daniel 9.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God is in His Holy Temple - according to Scripture. This was also the case in the earthly sanctuary.

The sanctuary on earth is where sacrifices were made where the blood was brought, where sinners met with their intercessor, where atonement was made, where the place of God's dwelling was located - where the people looked for forgiveness of sins - atonement.

This is the closest that you got to the definition of a temple, and its purpose Bob. Even then, it is not very concise is it?

 

[BobRyan]

Actually I discuss BOTH the function and purpose of the earthly temple AND the heavenly sanctuary in that post as follows

God is in His Holy Temple - according to Scripture. This was also the case in the earthly sanctuary.

God's temple is in heaven itself - the text does not say "God's temple IS heaven itself" as some might have imagined.

Notice

the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;




The sanctuary on earth is where sacrifices were made where the blood was brought, where sinners met with their intercessor, where atonement was made, where the place of God's dwelling was located - where the people looked for forgiveness of sins - atonement.

The sanctuary on earth provided a predictive lense - predicting the Sacrifice of Christ "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain" 1Cor 5. Christ was slain not only AS the Passover lamb - but ON the very day of Passover.

Christ was RAISED not only AS the first fruits of the dead (1Cor 1) but ON the very day of First Fruits - the Sunday after Passover (Friday).

Even so the Day of Atonement service in heaven began not only AS Lev 16 predicts but it began WHEN Dan 8 predicts and ON the very day of the Lev 16 Day of Atonement in the year that Dan 8 specifies.

And as Dan 7 points out - WHEN the ancient of days comes AND the judgment is finally passed in favor of the saints -- all persecution of the saints will end and the 2nd coming will take place with the saints taking possession of their promised inheritance.

-----

The sanctuary in heaven is the PLACE WHERE God's throne is - where the Angels are - where the judgment takes place in Dan 7:9-10 and it is WHERE Christ goes in Dan 7:13-14 and is the place where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" in Dan 7:22 which results in the saints taking possession of their inheritance at the 2nd coming.

The Sanctuary in heaven serves to prove through the books of record and comparison to the Law of God - that the Gospel of Christ is fully sufficient - that it answers all questions - and that the saints are to be vindicated, justified, made right in the context of the court room setting God describes in Dan 7:9-10.

It is the center for explaining the Gospel solution for sin to the myriads and myriads assembled in Dan 7:9.

It is the place in which Christ is "The one Mediator between God and man" 1Tim 2:4.

It is the place in which we find "our Advocate with the Father" 1John 2:1.

It is the place where we "go boldly" having confidence to "enter within the veil" Hebrews 10.

The SEVEN lamp stands of heaven's Sanctuary (in Rev 1) are contrasted to the ONE lampstand in the earthly temple. Represent the Spirit of God according to God's Word in Rev 1.

The Altar of Incense in heaven is the place of intercession where Christ offers up the prayers and petitions of the saints and the Holy Spirit Himself "intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words".

The ark of the Testimony (Rev 11) in heaven is in the Most Holy Place.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I quote Adam Clarke as follows -

Adam Clarke –
Verse 14. Unto two thousand and three hundred days
Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. If we date these years from the vision of the he-goat, (Alexander's invading Asia,) this was A.M. 3670, B.C. 334; and two thousand three hundred years from that time

Then ... innexplicably Walter answers

Your interpretation has zero basis for textual support and your authorities do not agree with your 2300 years intepretation.

Obviously Walter finds no text at all that calls the daily sacrifice the "evening and morning sacrifice". No not even one.

Can't read English? Daniel 8:11-13 repeatedly calls it the "tamiyd" sacrifice and that is exactly the descriptive term used in Exodus for the evening and morning sacrifice. Can't get much plainer. On the other hand the hebrew structure in Daniel 8 "evening morning" is not once used for the ordinary day in Genesis.

 

[DHK]

Actually I discuss BOTH the function and purpose of the earthly temple AND the heavenly sanctuary in that post as follows

Do you need another language to communicate in Bob? English doesn't do very well for you??
I didn't ask for a discussion, nor do I want one.
I simply asked for a definition, and a brief one at that. Be as concise as you can. We go around and around in circles. You honestly can't define in simple terms a "temple"? Unbelievable! My children can. But that is not surprising. What is, is that I have a grandchild old enough to define "temple" and you can't?

 

[BobRyan]

I quote Adam Clarke (not an SDA by the way) showing that even he uses the day for year principle in Dan 8 just as we all do in Dan 9 AND that he fully understand this to be 2300 years not 1150 years.

I also show other (non-SDA) Bible scholars refering to this period as 2300 days but then failing to consitently apply the Dan9 day for year principle.

So how does Walter defend his 1150 day claim?

Your interpretation has zero basis for textual support and your authorities do not agree with your 2300 years intepretation.

1. They do NOT divide 2300 in half - but rather accept it as 2300 days thus admitting to the "evening and morning" as a day.

2. And Adam Clarke ALSO applies it as 2300 years using the same method as Dan 9!!

This is the easy part.

Walter said
Can't read English? Daniel 8:11-13 repeatedly calls it the "tamiyd" sacrifice and that is exactly the descriptive term used in Exodus for the evening and morning sacrifice. Can't get much plainer. On the other hand the hebrew structure in Daniel 8 "evening morning" is not once used for the ordinary day in Genesis.

Dan 8:14 does NOT say "for taymid 2300" or "for 2300 taymid".

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I also show other (non-SDA) Bible scholars refering to this period as 2300 days but then failing to consitently apply the Dan9 day for year principle.

What you call their failure to be consistent is agreement with my position rather than with yours.

1. They do NOT divide 2300 in half - but rather accept it as 2300 days thus admitting to the "evening and morning" as a day.

That is precisely why I said "OR" which is admission that there were only two possible ways to be consistent with the "days" rather than 2300 year theory.

Dan 8:14 does NOT say "for taymid 2300" or "for 2300 taymid".

This is an absolute cop out! Daniel is so clear and so explicit that this vision concerns and is in regard to the "tamiyd" and "tamiyd" is inseperably linked with "sacrifice."

by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Nothing could be spelled out any clearer, any more simpler, any more straight forward, any more explicit "How long shall be THE VISION CNCERNING THE TAMIYD SACRIFICE"?

The point remains unscathed, untouched, and unassailable!

 

[DHK]

A simple question for Bob and Scriptmemory:

What is a temple in the Bible? Please define, and give its function.
Be brief. A simple answer will do.

This post was made on January 5. To this date neither Scriptmemory nor Bob Ryan have been able to give a simple answer to it. That does demonstrate something wrong about their theology one would think.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who think the Bible has nothing to say about the Temple of God in heaven or on earth are destined to be dissappointed when they turn from scripture seeking only the words of man to guide them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I quote Adam Clarke (not an SDA by the way) showing that even he uses the day for year principle in Dan 8 just as we all do in Dan 9 AND that he fully understand this to be 2300 years not 1150 years.

I also show other (non-SDA) Bible scholars refering to this period as 2300 days but then failing to consitently apply the Dan9 day for year principle.

So how does Walter defend his 1150 day claim?


1. They do NOT divide 2300 in half - but rather accept it as 2300 days thus admitting to the "evening and morning" as a day.

2. And Adam Clarke ALSO applies it as 2300 years using the same method as Dan 9!!

This is the easy part.


Dan 8:14 does NOT say "for taymid 2300" or "for 2300 taymid".

The point remains.

What you call their failure to be consistent is agreement with my position rather than with yours.

On the contrary - you insist that Dan 8:14 is 1150 days. All of the examples I gave show non-SDA Bible scholars agreeing that this is 2300 days - where evening and morning are in fact a reference to "one day".

How is this agreeing with your position?

That is precisely why I said "OR" which is admission that there were only two possible ways to be consistent with the "days" rather than 2300 year theory.

By going to the 2300 day or 2300 day-for-a-year choice you are stepping near to the real debate.

Then in that case - the only question is whether to consistently apply the prophetic day for a year principle in Dan 7,8,9,12 as Adam Clarke does - or to apply it haphazardly picking and choosing one way in one chapter - and another way elsewhere.

I prefer the consistent solution.

While it is true that the little horn is doing damage - the question is - damage to what. In the dark ages the papacy clearly replaces the work of Christ as our High Priest in the Holy Place (daily service) of the heavenly sanctuary with the Mass.

And in the Dan 8:14 solution that maps to the same Dan 7:22 solution - the judgment of God in the antitypical day of Atonement (the Cleansing of the Sanctuary Lev 16) is the event that the 2300 year timeline points toward.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

How is this agreeing with your position?

Because the "tamiyd" consists of two sacrifices in a given day - the morning and evening of that day. Hence, 2300 evening morning sacrifices.

Again the evidence is so clear and so explicit that one must shut their eyes to the following contextual facts and the most significant is that the very question of "HOW LONG" which verse 14 is a direct response to is connected FIRST to:


How long shall be the vision concerning the daily [Tamiyd] sacrifice,


How Long shall be WHAT? the "tamiyd"!!!


What is the "tamiyd"????? It is the "tamiyd" SACRIFICE!

Daniel 8:14 is the direct response to this question with the answer 2300 evening morning! Evening morning what? TAMIYD SACRICE!


This is so clear and explicit that only another agenda forced into this context by you and other expositors ignores it!


I guarantee that Bob will not deal with the evidence I give above but will simply PARROT his SDA dogma.

 

[DHK]

Those who think the Bible has nothing to say about the Temple of God in heaven or on earth are destined to be dissappointed when they turn from scripture seeking only the words of man to guide them.

in Christ,

Bob

The Bible has plenty to say about temples. But you don't. You can't even define what one is. You show your ignorance by quoting a verse that has the word "temple" in it, but you don't know what the word means, therefore you hide behind the verse. You display an amazing ignorance in defining a temple and its purpose.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible has plenty to say about temples. But you don't.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to CLICK the link

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1631678&postcount=180

and SEE if it is true that I said nothing there about BOTH the Earthly and Heavenly sanctuaries identifying functions for each of them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Because the "tamiyd" consists of two sacrifices in a given day - the morning and evening of that day. Hence, 2300 evening morning sacrifices.

Again the evidence is so clear and so explicit that one must shut their eyes to the following contextual facts and the most significant is that the very question of "HOW LONG" which verse 14 is a direct response to is connected FIRST to:


How long shall be the vision concerning the daily [Tamiyd] sacrifice,



I guarantee that Bob will not deal with the evidence I give above but will simply PARROT his SDA dogma.

Actually "quoting you " is sufficient to debunk that argument above.

Dan 8:14 is the one that actually mentions the 2300 evening mornings (2300 days).

"Unto 2300 evenings and mornings and then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed" -- pointing to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary as central to the Day of Atonement antitype service in heaven with Christ as our High Priest.

Dan 8:14 It is the text you are carefully AVOIDING in your discussion above as you try to wrench the text into saying 2300 tamiyd -- which obviously it does NOT say!

You have pinned your entire argument on a fictional idea that Dan 8:14 speaks about 2300 taymid (dailys). It says no such thing! So you limit your Bible quote to Dan 8:13 while trying to make your case about Dan 8:14.

Once you go that far down the wrong road - you make this a little too easy for me.

Dan 8:13 identifies activity being done by the little horn power (Pagan Rome followed by Papal Rome) during part of that 2300 year timeline. It speaks to the fact that the Sanctuary function in antitype - that is indicated by the HOLY place - DAILY service of the earthly sanctuary would be attacked, covered with error - by the persecuting little horn power of Dan 8. And sure enough the Mass was designed to replace the Priestly work of Christ during his Daily "Holyl Place" ministry in Heaven - by directing Christians to an earthly priest and an earthly sacrifice INSTEAD.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

It is left as an exercise for the reader to CLICK the link

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1631678&postcount=180

and SEE if it is true that I said nothing there about BOTH the Earthly and Heavenly sanctuaries identifying functions for each of them.

in Christ,

Bob

If that is your answer Bob, you are wrong and incapable of forming a simple definition of "temple," and give a simple statement of the purpose of one (as in a few words or even one sentence). How can you discuss something that you are totally ignorant of. Since January 5 you have been unable to give an answer that most Christian children can easily answer.