Atonement (John Owen)

Southern,
So long as you insist that a condition of human spirit is sin, you'll not understand the truth.

Belief and unbelief, and All conditions inbetween the extreems of either is a condition of spirit. All deeds of man are the product of a condition of spirit.

An unbelieving spirit does not exist. Every spirit believes in something, Even satan's demons believe. It is what the spirit believes that makes the difference in the person! We humans act out according to our beliefs. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that it is not sin to not believe in Christ? </font>[/QUOTE]I am saying that belief is a condition of spirit. It is what the spirit believes that the spirit acts on. Jesus, said it is spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer.
If one does not believe in God, or the Christ, then one's deeds will reflect that non-belief, and one's deeds will be deeds of unrighteousness. If however one believes in God then one's deeds will likewise reflect one's belief and they will be deeds of righteousness.

So belief is a condition of Spirit, not a deed of spirit!

 

I am saying that belief is a condition of spirit. It is what the spirit believes that the spirit acts on. Jesus, said it is spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer.
If one does not believe in God, or the Christ, then one's deeds will reflect that non-belief, and one's deeds will be deeds of unrighteousness. If however one believes in God then one's deeds will likewise reflect one's belief and they will be deeds of righteousness.

So belief is a condition of Spirit, not a deed of spirit! </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry to be thick, but I'm still not sure - are you saying that it is not sin to not believe in Christ? Yes or no will do.

 

If you do not understand the basis of human reasoning, how will you understand the reasoning of God?

Human belief resides in human spirit. The human spirit either believes or does not believe. What the human spirit believes provides the basis for human acts. Sins of human beings are the manifestation of what the human believes or accepts.

Our human deeds are the manifestation of our human beliefs.

So, whatever, is unbelief a sin or is it a condition of human spirit? I think if you will analyze it the sin related to unbelief is disobedience, not unbelief.

 

I understand human reasoning enough to know that you don't want to answer the question, and I really don't blame you. But, I just can't let it go - is it sin to not believe in Christ, or is it not sin? I say it is sin to not believe in Christ. What do you say?

A. It is sin to not believe in Christ.
B. It is not sin to not believe in Christ.

Please choose A or B.

Hint: Rev. 21:8

 

Your question really is: "Is unbelief a sin?" I have told you at least twice that belief and unblief are conditions of human spirit! It is the deeds done in accordance with what the human spirit believes that are either sins or deeds of righteousness. Revelation 20:14,15 says that All will be judged according to their deeds, but the person doing the deeds is only cast into the lake of fire if his name is not found in the book of life.

You sir are wielding a 16lb bible, deliberately attempting to make all conform to your interpretation of it. So I will not play your game, because I too have a heavy bible. I simply want you to see how to accurately apply the knowledge contained in the bible.

 

The Bible teaches that it is a "command" to believe. (I John 3:23). How do you "disobey" (as you put it) this command? By not believing. What is the act of not believing? Unbelief...

Conclusion- Unbelief is a sin and "disobedience" to the command to believe. </font>[/QUOTE]If it is a command, then it is disobedience to not do what the command says we must do. I'm a retired military person, and fully understand this issue from first hand experience. Getting drunk is against the law, violating that law is what one is charged for, but the judgment against the offender is failure to obey the law, not getting drunk! Getting drunk is the consequence of not obeying the law!

 

This is no game. Please define "conditions of human spirit", and give examples of others, if there are any. For example, are gratitude and ingratitude also conditions of human spirit? What about holy and unholy?

 

From the OP:

From Wes,Outwest:

Don't look now but I think Wes and Spurgeon agree here. "And first the sin of unbelief will appear to be extremely heinous when we remember that it is the parent of every other iniquity." (CHS)

Unbelief has to be a sin because it is obviously not holy. BUT it is sin as a condition and not as a specific, identifiable violation of the holy. It's like being outside in -10 degree weather in gym shorts. You could look at the fellow and say he was cold. That is his condition (along with being stupid). You could say, "Look, his right hand is cold." That statement would be true, but incomplete. His condition is cold and it is made up of its identifiable parts like his right hand and his left hand, etc, etc, etc..

Unbelief, as Spurgeon observed, "is the parent of every other iniquity." A man's unbelief is his condition comprising its identifiable parts, ie: wearing your hair too long, listening to rock music, smoking and reading the NIV.

whatever said to Wes

I don't think there are any other conditions that matter. Belief and unbelief are the only conditions that have eternal consequences. I can be saved and thankless. My gratitude has no bearing on my salvation.

And then southern said,

* all the sins of all men: That's universal salvation and does not warrant consideration. Unless you said all the sins of all men except for those specifically excluded.

* all the sins of some men: Yes, with conditions. Some would have to be interpreted as meaning all the sins of men who believe. Why they believe is not germane to the question.

* some of the sins of all men: That would take limited atonement places neither Calvin nor Arminius would recognize.

 

I don't think there are any other conditions that matter. Belief and unbelief are the only conditions that have eternal consequences. I can be saved and thankless. My gratitude has no bearing on my salvation.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree, I'm just trying to get my head around what he means by "conditions of human spirit". You've said that unbelief is sin, but he won't say that. I think he is thinking that "conditions of human spirit" can't be sin, but can result in sin. If ingratitude is a "condition of human spirit" then that position is untenable, since ingratitude is obviously a sin. But, I'm really not 100% sure what he's saying.

I think this is the position that Wes is trying to avoid by not conceding that unbelief is sin. I also think that a lot of people hold this position without thinking it through, saying things like "God doesn't hold sin against anyone, only unbelief". That means that either unbelief isn't sin, or that Christ died for most but not all of the sins of all men, or that atonement ("died for") means something different than the church has always believed it to mean. I think Scripture forbids all three of those ideas.

 

Now I don't know if you will understand this but, WHAT is the image of God?

Since we are in the image of God we must be spirit! Can flesh believe or not believe?
Jesus said,

What part of man "hears" and "believes"? Since the flesh has nothing to offer, it must be spirit!

Since we are spirit and since the Holy Spirit works on us in the spirit you can see that

Where in man do these "fruit of the spirit reside? Since the flesh has nothing to offer, they must reside in man's spirit!

James, in teaching us control said,

And where do all of the thoughts that issue from the mouth come from? That's right, It must be our spirit because the flesh has nothing to offer.

I can say with great confidence that it is in our spirit that believing and unbelieving reside! Therefore, unbelief is not a sin, it is a condition of our spirit!

 

But his sin was disobedience! He disobeyed the law, got drunk, which was the subject of the law. So whatever ever punishment he received, it was for disobedience of the law, and not for getting drunk, because it could have been any number of conditions that the law prohibited.

 

Adam was made in the image of God and then "The Fall". Seth was Adam's issue post-Fall. Seth was not made in God's image. He was made in Adam's.

Wes, I don't think this dog will hunt!

 

Adam was made in the image of God and then "The Fall". Seth was Adam's issue post-Fall. Seth was not made in God's image. He was made in Adam's.

Wes, I don't think this dog will hunt! </font>[/QUOTE]If Adam was in the Image of God, then Adam's offspring must also be in the image of God! The only thing the fall did was separate man who sins from God who is HOLY! The species that is planted as a seed, is the species that grows from the seed.

We are still called MAN! The fall did nothing to change that. We are the same MAN that God created!

 

Adam was created. Seth came by the way we can't talk about on this board.

Adam changed! He became something he wasn't.

So if that seed changed, like Adam, the species that grows from it will be like Adam - fallen, sinful and forcibly evicted from the Garden.

How significant was the change? Compare their thoughts on nakedness above with their thoughts on nakedness before the Fall.

The Fall changed everything! To say that nothing changed makes the balance of Scripture rather senseless. If nothing changed we'd still be in the Garden in intimate fellowship with God. We would be naked and not ashamed. There would be no pain in child birth, weeds in our gardens or a revulsion for snakes (re: Gen 3: 14-17)

 

Genesis 3:22-23 NAS 22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.</font>[/QUOTE]What changed in man is the content of man's spirit! "he has become like one of us knowing good and evil" Before eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, they were perfect and INNOCENT! But alas, their innocence was lost to knowledge of Good and evil, and every man henceforth inherited that knowledge and it is referred to as "sin nature".

You will notice that scripture does not say that God changed his image in man! only that man gained the knowledge of good and evil, and before they could eat of the tree of life and live forever, they were banished from the garden INTACT as God had created them. Their offspring then are also in the "INTACT" image of God! But because we have in our spirit the knowledge of good and evil, ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. NO we have not been altered from the Man that God created, except that our spirit now contains the knowledge of good and evil. In the same way, our spirit can be filled with the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

It is only in your imagination of easy believism that Man became something he was not! Now that you know the truth you must reconsider those other myths that you believe.

 

You forget one thing Adam could do after the Fall that he could not do before. He could DIE physically and spiritually. It may only be one exception but it's a BIGGY!

I didn't realize I was lost in a fairy tale world of easy believism. Did any of my posts start with "Once upon a time...." Why are you so cranky, Wes? Santa Claus forget you this year? Oh, there I go again with my mythical world!

Hey, want to hear another one. Once upon a time there was an Arminian who believed in total depravity....

 

You forget one thing Adam could do after the Fall that he could not do before. He could DIE physically and spiritually. It may only be one exception but it's a BIGGY!

I didn't realize I was lost in a fairy tale world of easy believism. Did any of my posts start with "Once upon a time...." Why are you so cranky, Wes? Santa Claus forget you this year? Oh, there I go again with my mythical world!

Hey, want to hear another one. Once upon a time there was an Arminian who believed in total depravity.... </font>[/QUOTE]One thing you miss in reading of the expulsion from the garden is the part that they were banished BEFORE THEY COULD EAT OF THE TREE OF LIFE AND LIVE FOREVER! Adam was not created an eternal being, therefore Adam was destined to die! Likewise Eve.

Cranky is not the word that descibes me. Pragmatic maybe but not cranky.