Atonement (John Owen)

I can see you've never held a job in the secular world, or you would know and understand that myths exist among the realities, just as they do in religion.

 

He apparently was a bad boy a few days before Christmas, having come up with this lop-sided theory. I heard, Santa only brought him a 'bucket of coal.'

Thank God only one of the brethren fell off of the sleigh!

 

The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil existed in the garden.

Except for the one specifically excluded

Adam ate freely from the tree of life and was not prohibited. The warning of death came along with the warning not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the only prohibited tree.

Here's the rub. Adam could eat freely of the tree of life without restriction until he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Hence the "and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

"Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Adam sinned. His wages are death. If after his sin he ate from the tree of life then:

*Adam would live eternally in his fallen state.
*Adam would have been granted eternal life outside of God's mercy and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Just think, all he would have to do is eat one more piece of fruit from the tree of life: the ultimate in works righteousness.

The point is, once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God could not allow him to eat from the tree of life, ever again.

Again:

I don't always understand the great mysteries of God, but I do understand Him to be consistent.

 

Not even Evel Knievel could make that leap. I traded my secular world for one where I could work 52 days a year and be done by noon on my workday. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to speak to Father Time about my New Year's plans.

 

How do you know that he did? You are assuming aren't you?

The implication of the tree of Life is certainly that of eternal life. So if possessing the knowledge of good and evil, Adam then ate of the tree of Life, Evil would then be eternal and that is opposed to God's plan for man.

See Revelation 20, where all the characters and characteristics of evil that have been revealed to us are cast into the lake of fire, the second death, which is the death of spirit and, one can surmise, the principalities and powers of evil.

If man had been allowed to eat of the tree of life and lived eternally, evil would have become eternal. God banished man from the garden before that could happen.

Now also in Revelation 20 we find a judgment of deeds. That judgment is described as a test by fire where good deeds come through the fire refined as gold and silver are refined by fire, and which gemstones seem impervious to. However, evil deeds (sins) do not fair so well because they are consumed in the fire in the manner of wood, hay, and stubble, leaving only worthless ash. Yet the one doing the deeds is not tested by fire but is judged based upon whether or not his name is written in the book of life. If found in the book of live, the person is NOT cast into the lake of fire but is instead passed from death into life. If not found in the book, the person is cast into the lake of fire. Then we see in Revelation 21 that this OLD heaven and earth has disappeared. The lake of fire is associated with this Heaven and Earth, so it too has passed away, never to appear again! And now a new Heaven and Earth are before us, with the New Jerusalem which is the Home of God among men.

Yes, there are interpretations that must be dealt with, but if you take it as it is written, you must consider the ramifications of an Adam who now possesses the knowledge of good and evil, who also ate of the tree of life and became an eternal being with both good and evil. There would be eternal strife, and all the promises made in God's word regarding eternal life would be nul and void.

So you might want to rethink your position based on more than just the scriptures you currently value.

 

Southern,
It's near impossible to describe the tops of theological mountains like Owens, Edwards, and Luther to those that don't want to make the climb!

R.C.

 

Ya know rc, you can look to those other men who put their trousers on in the same way that you do if you choose to do so. But if you are trying to convince someone else of your convictions, use your own thoughts! And for the love of Pete, don't ever judge another by the standard you perceive in those named men as having.

Last time I checked, neither Owens, nor Edwards nor Luther saved even one soul, so stick with the one who does the saving!

 

I always have.... God. You keep on looking at the one you think who saves .... man!

 

No sir, I see man as the object of God's love, the object of God's salvation, the Object of God's mercy, the object of God's desires.

Nonetheless, man is merely a created being who cannot under his own power save himself from anything. But man can hear God, and believe in God, and after believing can obey God and do the will and work of God. If not you would not eat! It is man, "believer or not", that does the work of God in growing and processing the food you eat. It is man that God gave that kind of intelligence to be able to do those things. Man is the only species God created that has that ability. Man is the only species that God gave a redeemable spirit to. Man is the only species that God set above all other species.

You can continue in your myth of total depravity if you want, but you are living a lie!

One more, What species on the face of the earth besides man has a bible to convey God's word to them? There are none! So God, it appears, holds man in a position above all other species. Why don't you?

 

It is true that only God can save; only Jesus has that power and authority. On the other hand, He will not save anyone, except babies, etc., apart from a trust in His saving benefits coming from the Cross. Wes and I and you should call this faith. It is all of grace. Thank God!

 

The tree of life existed in the garden. It was not forbidden. Only the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was. Do I assume he ate from the tree of life? The Lord said he could eat freely eat.

And that is why Adam was driven from the garden. I thought I said that in my earlier post but I may have hit my head when I fell off the wagon.

See, we agree on that point.

As my "coal miner's daughter" mom would say, "Yes, we got coal for Christmas and were glad to have it, too!"

 

Wes,

Do you have any theological (proper) training?

Do you know what you say if God desires ANYTHING other than Himself? ... The "B" word... You would be booed out of a theology 101 class for saying that!

 

Whether or not I have formal theology training is not the issue here.

I have attended a couple of college theology classes. The second one I attended, ended three weeks into the course. It ended because I shredded the professor's theology so badly, that the next week he could not answer the student's questions, and they booed him out of the classroom. We got our money refunded.

Incidentally, that professor was the pastor of a local, prominent United Methodist Church. He was good at reading liturgy, but I don't believe he opened the bible.

 

There's a lot of that going around. He must not have been much of a Methodist; just a typical one.

 

rc,

God is not a Divine Egomaniac as you have described Him. He is sovereign and Lord of the universe, world, and Noble in our lives. He is Ruler in all of Heaven, earth and throughout all of His universe. His concept of Himself is not out of equilibrium.

If it were not about His relationship with human beings, He never would have created Adam and Eve.

You said,

You would only be booed at a Calvinistic seminary where people are taught this lop sided theology.

The whole idea and reality of the Cross is not only about His genius, it is also about human redemption. Balance is not a bad thing if you have it.

Even a lay person who studies the Bible will produce a Biblical theology that some professors of theology still do not have straight in their minds and hearts.