Atonement Question

Hello nwells.

The lamb never saved anyone it was a prefiguring of Christ.

The elect have always been saved by grace on the basis of the true Atoning sacrifice made by God. The lamb used in the type showed over and over that the blood of animals could not deal with sin.
HEB 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

I'm not sure what you mean but does: The elect have always been saved by grace. Answer it?
Israel is a type for the Church. As in the Church there are those who are not saved so it was in Israel. Not all of Israel are Israel. Spiritual Israel are the elect, the Church, and what was prefigured in the OT to the type is true for us and the sacrifice of Christ covered those elect back then.
The Lamb was made to be an Atoning sacrifice for True Israel alone.
Jesus was able to explain to the disciples how the scriptures testified about Him.

An Atoning sacrifice reconciles God and man in truth only if the Lamb is God.

You have missed 'my children's children'.
What's the 'for all' there in bold? If the 'all' are the elect then He died for them all. Israel is made up of two parts, only those that come through Isaac are truly children of Abraham.
His promises to Israel the type are promises to His Church. Us.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
So the lamb that died in the OT was never meant to save but prefigure Christ dying for Israel.

Is this of any use?

johnp.

 

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."</font>[/QUOTE]Where is that found in the NEW Testament? The NEW Covenant. Yes, I agree that it is in the OLD TESTAMENT, but so is animal sacrifice, do you submit to the the laws of Atonement in the old testament? Are you still killing animals without blemish for the sake of having your sins atoned?

Grow up Johnp!

 

Wes.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Really Wes! It's at Romans 9:14. I would have thought you would know where that is seeing as you have seen it so often!

EX 33:19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Animal sacrifices saved no one and were meant to prefigure Christ.

The ones you are talking about are only the shadows of the reality we have.

So the lamb that died in the OT was never meant to save but prefigure Christ dying for Israel.
The elect have always been saved by grace on the basis of the true Atoning sacrifice made by God. The lamb used in the type showed over and over that the blood of animals could not deal with sin.
HEB 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

johnp.

 

It really pays to read what you are quoting, especially if you are criticizing someone who knows the difference. You see, Paul is quoting the OLD TESTAMENT!

Yes, the scriptures do reveal the truth johnp!

 

We agree on all, EXCEPT, "the elect have always been saved by grace". You have yet to proven that anyone is saved by Grace! Until you do so, you will not convince me that you know the truth!

 

Wes,

Yes? What? Why do I have to guess at your meanings?

No it is God that reveals truth. The scriptures are closed to those perishing.

Who are the 'we' Wes?

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you are saved...

I have nothing to prove. I have no intent of convincing you.
I do not want to convince you, that would be to deny my faith. Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you are saved...

johnp.

 

quote:by Wes
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Yes, the scriptures do reveal the truth johnp!
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ONLY to those who HEAR.

 

Here now,

Yes you are right! There are those who have eyes, but cannot see; ears, but cannot hear; and brains, but cannot think things through!

They are blind and are easily led by the blind!

 

If anything of the Spiritual nature were left to a man's brain he would always be in darkness.

 

Everything Spiritual passes into, is processed by man's brain, and is available to man's spirit. That is why faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Man's brain is merely the information collection, processing and retention center for man's spirit!

So Here now, everything spiritual is of the man's brain! It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer!

 

Wes says:
So Here now, everything spiritual is of the man's brain! It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer!

Here Now asks:
What spirit are you refering to, when you say it is the spirit that gives life?

 

The human spirit! For without human spirit, the human flesh could not live! The human would never be able to exercise Dominion over the animals, birds and fish, as God determined they should before he made them in His image.

No! The human spirit did not die, it became separated from God, thus it became an autonomous living spirit held captive in human flesh! Left to its own devices, it becomes exceedingly sinful separating itself further from God.

 

Wes Outwest
Let me start by saying that scripture is not bogus, neither is the FACT of God's sovereignty

1. If God "wills" all to be saved than it will happen; you must be a universalist! We know all people are not and will not be saved. Again is God sovereign or is He not, and you tell us to grow up!

2. Has God changed? The fact in the OT yes OT same God (different methods of atonement) God was sovereign His mercy flowed on those whom He had mercy, same as today!

3. Since you are so persistent in NT passages and clearly ignorant Nt scripture, Have you read Rom 9:14-18


What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Romans 9:14-20 (NASB)


AMEN! There is no injustice with God

Who are as men to question His ways, we must accept truth as truth!

 

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

DON'T MISS THAT IT'S IN THE NT WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED
NEITHER I NOR SCRIPTURE CAN BE ANY PLAINER!

 

Since Romans 9:14-24, a discussion of God's Justice has nothing to do with Atonement, why is it necessary to address it in this topic about another "Atonement Question"? Atonement is not about God's Justice, it is ALL about God's MERCY!


By the way, I am not a Universalist! However I believe that Jesus's atonement for SIN is universally applied because it was to atone for SIN, and not for individual humans. Therefore, every where that Sin is, Atonement for sin is applied!

 

Except Eli's house!

johnp.

 

ISA 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

ISA 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

ISA 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

ISA 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

 

Like always, johnp, you are equating Jesus atonement with individual persons. Jesus' atonement is not for persons, but for SIN, so that sin cannot prevent the whosoever's that believe in Him from having everlasting life, because the penalty for SIN has been satisfied.

When you look at the reason the SIN of the house of Eli is not atoned, It makes all the difference in the world! But you conveniently overlook that truth!

 

Wes.

I might overlook things but here you say that all sin has been atoned for and the bible says that Eli's sins were not atoned for then you tell me I'm misleading. How?
Here you say all sin has been atoned for. Therefore, every where that Sin is, Atonement for sin is applied! Then you say When you look at the reason the SIN of the house of Eli is not atoned But you believe that Christ's sacrifice atoned for all sin. That is what you believe and have proclaimed since I've known you. Now you say both, that all sin has been atoned for and all sin has not been atoned for and then tell me I mislead!

That is a part of my unwavering Calvinism I'll be bound. Thank you for the compliment. Jesus died for my sins.

In the light of Isaiah 53 would you like to change this statement?

You believe the death of Christ atoned for all sin. The reason people go to Hell is through unbelief which is not a sin and not a work. Or at least you did. Have you changed your mind now that Eli has been revealed to you?

johnp.