Atonement Question

That is a part of my unwavering Calvinism I'll be bound. Thank you for the compliment. Jesus died for my sins.

In the light of Isaiah 53 would you like to change this statement?

You believe the death of Christ atoned for all sin. The reason people go to Hell is through unbelief which is not a sin and not a work. Or at least you did. Have you changed your mind now that Eli has been revealed to you?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]ONCE AGAIN, Johnp, you are equating atonement with salvation. They are not the same! NO MAN is saved who does not have faith in God. The house of ELI cursed God, and continued to do so! They lacked faith in God, were not repentant. Therefore, there could be no atonement for them. Yet The Christ's atonement was for ALL SIN in All times. Those who continue to sin, who lack faith, and who even continue to curse God, though their sins have been atoned, cannot be saved because they themselves have made themselves UNREDEEMABLE! I don't doubt that even you know, or know of someone who is like that!

"Jesus died for my sins" is human perspective and it is perfectly OK to view it in that sense. But the truth is Jesus died to pay the penalty for Sin without regard to individual persons. We all accept Jesus' death in a very personal way, me too! But the truth is that His death was not on the basis of personalities but rather the totality of the human condition!

The same applies to God's grace. God Behaving in accordance with his grace is not, from the human perspective, an individual human thing. God's grace is for every human living while God is behaving in accordance with his grace.

Salvation, however, is a deeply personal and uniquely individual thing. No one is saved in groups, because salvation is completely dependent upon the faith of the individual. If you have faith in God you get saved, if you lack faith in God, you are not saved.

As for Eli's House, No change in my position. Eli's house has no atonement because Eli's house does not accept atonement, and repent from their evil ways. They continue to Curse God, therefore God has no obligation toward them.

 

Atonement is not about God's Justice, it is ALL about God's MERCY!quote Wes Outwest

1)Again listen and read what you write....above you link atonement with God's mercy! I agree it is about God's mercy and " therefore He has mercy on whom HE wills, and hardens whom HE wills. Again you show your ignorance of scripture. God's justice is thwarted by His mercy (THE CROSS OF CHRIST)and that is God's eternal sovereign choice who will recieve that mercy.

2) Again all you do is dodge the issue,logic, and scripture especially. IT is really not that philosophical it's very plain to see from scripture.

3) Again you have absolutely failed at your argument; it holds no water. It is weak, and unscriptural!

Only God can open the eyes of your heart. THis is not an arrogant argument. THis is a part of who HE is; mo matter if we like it or not. We are to accpet Him and His ways "who are we to reply against God" paraphrase of Rom 9:20 We (all humans, even sinners)are the clay and He is the potter!

 

quotes by Wes Outwest:
1) They are not the same! NO MAN is saved who does not have faith in God. The house of ELI cursed God, and continued to do so! They lacked faith in God, were not repentant. Therefore, there could be no atonement for them.

WHere does faith come from "by hearing and by hearing the Word of God" God imparts the Faith that we have....Faith comes not through human means it too comes from God! "Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father"

2) Yet The Christ's atonement was for ALL SIN in All times. Those who continue to sin, who lack faith, and who even continue to curse God, though their sins have been atoned, cannot be saved because they themselves have made themselves UNREDEEMABLE! I don't doubt that even you know, or know of someone who is like that!

a) The wages of sin is death.
b) Through sin we are seperated from God and live eternally that way in Hell because of sin. There is nothing else that can seperate form God's love except SIN.
c) If Christ died for All sin then All would be pardoned. No one can enter heaven without the blood applied covering(atonement)their sin.
d) If Christ cancelled all the debt of the world then why will their be people in hell and are their right now? Did Christ's atonement fail?
e) We make ourselves unredeemable? Refer to Rom 9:20 AGAIN

To this verse: Rom 9:6-13. All who live are not children of God. Did God's Word fail? Did the Gospel fail? Did God fail? Did Christ atonement fail? " May it never be!" Not everybody that exists are children of God! Thus the Word, Gospel, atonement, salvation, grace etc.. is applied to the chosen seed...the elect of God. Remember Jacob I have loved Esau have I hated. AMEN! It doesn't matter if we like it or not the Truth is the Truth my friend! What a mighty God we serve!

 

Chandler,

1)Again listen and read what you write....above you link atonement with God's mercy! I agree it is about God's mercy and " therefore He has mercy on whom HE wills, and hardens whom HE wills. Again you show your ignorance of scripture. God's justice is thwarted by His mercy (THE CROSS OF CHRIST)and that is God's eternal sovereign choice who will receive that mercy.</font>[/QUOTE]Are you limiting God the Son's atonement for Sin? Are you saying God the Son's atonement was for individuals? Are you saying that you are covered by the atonement but I am not? Are you saying that you are of "the elect" and I am not?

It appears that is exactly what you are saying. It seems that you are the one IGNORING the scriptures. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, (not the elect) that He Gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." That's not good enough for you, YOU want to limit the "God so loved" part to some nebulous, unnameable, indescribable group that you don't even have a clue about.

Don't be ignorant of the truth! Your false accusations are petty and trivial.

Then why are you trying to do God's job!

=============================
Quotes by Wes outwest.

God imparts the Faith that we have....Faith comes not through human means it too comes from God! "Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father"</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that is what one expects a Calvinist to say, because Calvinist's do not understand HOW we are made. Calvinist's remain "in the dark" refusing to accept the truth!

a) The wages of sin is death.</font>[/QUOTE]Then what was the Atonement all about? Did John the Baptist not tell us that Jesus came to take away the sins of the world? "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world!" Are you content to leave that little tidbit of truth out of your bible for the sake of a dead guy named Calvin?

Ah yes, Another scripture that you ignore is,

It is true that sin does separate us from God, but sin does not need to be an insurmountable blockade to keep man from God, you see there is a wide open gate called Confession that we pass through to receive forgiveness from our sins.

Part 1 this is the single most ignorant thought you express! You think that Atonement is pardon from sin, you think that because of what Jesus did is man's salvation! That cannot be farther from the truth! Atonement has not saved even one human being! Sin's penalty has been paid, therefore the penalty need not be paid by man! Once paid always paid. But if man does not take advantage of God's FREE offer of Salvation through faith, then man continues as if there has been no free gift offered, and yes man will perish, but NOT because of sin, only because of lack of faith!

NO! God forbid! The Christ's ATONEMENT was perfect, and it did exactly what God intended. It removed the penalty of sin from mankind. There is NNE IN HELL now, nor will there ever be one in hell who POSSESSES faith in God, in Jesus, even in the name of Jesus, regardless of their sin, the penalty of which has been paid ONCE for ALL! Don't be ignorant of the truth!

Romans 9:20. "But you, who do you think you, a human being, are, to answer back to God? Something that was made, can it say to its maker: why did you make me this shape?". As you can see, Romans 9:20 has nothing to do with the topic at hand! YOU are mixing concepts together that do not belong together. You are failing to see that man does indeed have a requirement levied upon him to HAVE FAITH! Those who do not have faith when they pass through the natural death, are UNREDEEMABLE! Yes, Jesus did preach to those who died before Jesus came to live among men, which is before ALL SIN was atoned. Those who believed were received into His presence. Those who did not believe remained where they were.

Again your ignorance of the truth is astounding! No one is born a child of God 'thru water'! So, how does one become a child of God? Not by natural birth, but by spiritual rebirth! Those who do not submit themselves to God in spiritual rebirth are not the children of God! Plain and simple truth! "...Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life!" Nowhere in scripture is it ever said that because of Jesus atonement for sin, all are pardoned. That is a false Calvinist thought! A thought spawned for the Calvinist to be able to justify his own false beliefs.

 

Wes.

I don't think we are allowed to answer this question Wes. You might have noticed that I got one of my posts scrapped for saying something like you weren't!

If you were honest you would see that it is you that avoids the truth. How does 'all sin atoned for' and 'none for Eli' not contradict?
"Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world!" Are you content to leave that little tidbit of truth out of your bible for the sake of a dead guy named Calvin?
You deny scripture continually. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
"Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world!"
The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'
You carry a contradiction for the sake of your whatever it is.

Did Jesus die for the whole of man's sin or is it a limited atonement?
The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'
Say yes and you deny scripture again.
Did Jesus die for the whole of man's sin or is it a limited atonement?
Calvinist's remain "in the dark" refusing to accept the truth!
Let us see who lives in the dark.

johnp.

 

Johnp,

I don't think we are allowed to answer this question Wes. You might have noticed that I got one of my posts scrapped for saying something like you weren't! [Cool]</font>[/QUOTE]This simply proves that you think contrary to the scriptures, because you are by refusing to answer honestly a question about "the elect". Your answer says that you think ONLY the elect will be saved when Scriptures clearly say that Whosoever believeth in Him are saved.

If you were honest you would see that it is you that avoids the truth. How does 'all sin atoned for' and 'none for Eli' not contradict?</font>[/QUOTE]Well let's see what is being said.

Well now God simply identifies the sin of Eli's family. Then tells Samuel to tell Eli that because Eli failed to correct his sons, that for them there will be no expiation. That does not mean that the Atonement of the Christ does not pay for the sin of Eli's family, but rather that Eli's family cannot, because they will not, be saved because they continue to curse God. That relieves God from any responsibility to expiate their sin. The penalty is paid, but if the one continues to sin there is not further expiation for the sin. ONCE is all there is, and ONCE is enough for those who repent! Now Johnp, take the blinders off and see the truth! There is no contradiction between what I've been saying and Scripture! Any contradiction is in your mind because you are blind to the truth!

The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'
Say yes and you deny scripture again.</font>[/QUOTE]YES! The scripture is clear, and it tells you why Eli's family is in trouble with God. The Christ's Atonement was for sin, not for men! Jesus paid the penalty for sin! Divine God, experienced death as payment in full of the penalty of sin. Since the time of the Christ's death on that cruel Roman cross, man has not been under the death penalty for sin! Why can't you understand that simple truth? It is a satanic LIE to say that man dies for his sins! However,if Man does not come to faith in God, it is the man's lack of faith that causes him to be cast into "the second death", and not sin!

Jesus' death was atonement for SIN and sin alone! His death defeated sin forever! His resurrection Defeated DEATH! Now man need not die, but can through faith in God have everlasting life.

Calvinist's remain "in the dark" for refusing to accept that truth

 

Wes.

Did Jesus die for the whole of man's sin or is it a limited atonement?

You resist limited atonement at the expense of denigrating scripture and you say that we blind ourselves!
1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " That is limited atonement.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " That is limited atonement. God decided not to atone for the sins of Eli's house but you say He did. You lose.

The 'whosoevers' are the elect and only the elect will believe. Jesus said to some Jews, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. Only those chosen are His sheep.
I asked you, Did Jesus die for the whole of man's sin or is it a limited atonement? Say yes and you deny scripture again.
You answer yes. You deny scripture. You deny scripture again by saying, It is a satanic LIE to say that man dies for his sins! When the scriptures say that the wages of sin is death.
By saying this you are saying that Eli's house was atoned for even though the scripture says, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " That is limited atonement.
And that is a thing God has sworn an oath about but you have the temerity to insist that all sin has been atoned for. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli... But the great and mighty Wes says all sin has been atoned for. `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' Who is it that denies scripture but you?

The scriptures say that the wages of sin is death. Wes says it's not.

Because I believe the scripture where it says, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " That is limited atonement and I believe that simple truth.
You do not accept limited atonement but limited atonement is to the front in this verse, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " That is limited atonement and that is what you don't like. This verse all by it's little self destroys your pretentions, your false gospel which is no gospel.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
If all sins are atoned for all sins have been forgiven. It is only you that tries to seperate the atonement and the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins comes with a sacrifice of atonement, those that Jesus atoned for have their sins forgiven and are, they are, reconciled to God and God to them.
Not all sins have been atoned for, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
What will you say when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ and explain to Him why you did not believe what He clearly says in favour of a false doctrine? How can you explain away the fact that you opposed Him by denying 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " And insisting that Christ's death was for all sin when He says the opposite?
If it means I stay in the dark because I believe what the scripture says then I perfer this darkness to what you offer. Leaving scripture is living in fantasy and that fantasy will be taken away from you. You need to ask God and you need Him to open your eyes. Don't ask for comfirmation of what you believe but ask Him to open your eyes.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

johnp.

 

Wes.

That is what I believe is the case concerning you and concerning me I know it is the case.

I told you why I could not answer. It was because I was told not to attack a man's faith but because you push I answered you.

The 'whosoever' are the elect. It is not said to save people but to bring comfort to those already saved. Anyone that believes is elect of God and does not face any judgment for anything because they believe Jesus died for their sins. Simple. Easy peasy. I thought you said we make things difficult!

johnp.

 

So now you are saying that Nicodemus was already saved? Why would Jesus tell him he must be born again if he is already saved?

 

Wes.

How did Nicodemus get here? He was not born again until he became born again but in the mind of God he was loved with an everlasting love. Whilst not technically saved he was not reprobate.

We need to be made alive in the spirit. All the information in the bible is there for us to know and the Holy Spirit to use. God could make anyone alive at anytime but He has restricted Himself to the witness of men in saving His people. A continuous line from Adam and Eve. Nicodemus must have the knowledge in his head before the Holy Spirit does a thing to him.
Why do you veer off track?
1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'
Is that a limited atonement? Yes will do. Did the sacrifice of Christ atone for Eli's house. No will do.

johnp.

 

NO! and YES!

You simply do not understand atonement for SIN, you want to apply it to Atonement for PEOPLE, and it don't fit!

 

Wes.
I asked; Is that a limited atonement? Yes will do. You answer no. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering. That is limited atonement.

I asked; Did the sacrifice of Christ atone for Eli's house. No will do. You answer yes.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.

Eli's house will never be atoned for...

I do not need to know anything about the atonement to see that none of whatever the atonement is went to Eli's house. His house did not get any of it did it? Yes it did you say. No it didn't Jesus says; 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.

Don't fit what? What is sin if it is not a personal thing? He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. Lev 1:4.
Eli's house is explicite, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering. Which forces you into either excepting limited atonement, a thing proven here beyond dispute, or into denying the scripture, also proven beyond dispute by you this time.
You lose.

johnp.

 

Why was there no atonement for Eli's house?
Is it, as you say, because the Christ's atonement was not good enough or did not extend far enough? NO! That is not the reason! The Christ's atonment, paid the penalty for ALL SIN in ALL times.

The reason there is no atonement for Eli's house is that Eli's house was not repentant! Eli did not correct his house!

 

Wes.

That is of no importance to this discussion at the moment. There was no atonement for his house.

Then it is a limited atonement yes or no?

You just can't bear to bring yourself to admit a limited atonement can you?

Yes but no says Wes.

johnp.

 

Wes.

And where have I claimed that the blood of Christ saves no one?

johnp.

 

There is NO LIMIT ON GOD THE SON's ATONEMENT FOR SIN! But, those who refuse to repent, remain servants of Sin even though sin is defeated!

Using your sola scriptura logic, and the scriptures you post, you will not win the argument! You will not convince even the most gullible!

 

Wes.

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.

If you are shouting so that the scripture will seem smaller in some way you will be disappointed. You do not overcome scripture.
1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.

So how long have you been wresting the scriptures for Wes boy?

Does the verse say 'Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice'? Yes or no.
If yes how can you say 'NO LIMIT ON GOD THE SON's ATONEMENT'?
If no what does ''Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice' mean?

How can there be no limit on the atonement when God says Himself He will provide none for Eli's house?

I won the argument man! I can't understand why you argue the toss over such a loser as Eli was for you. I know your whole doctrine stands or falls with the house of Eli, you have been shown that your doctrine is false. Limited atonement is a fact.
As for convincing anyone gullible? That is not my job to convince anyone of anything.

johnp.

 

Your post proves beyond doubt that you do not understand atonement!

 

Wes.

Explain where I am wrong instead of just saying I am.

johnp.

 

How often must I repeat myself on the subject of Atonement?

In the scriptures WHAT is ATONED! Did John the Baptist say "Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the 'sinners' of the world? What then did the Lamb of God take away? Jesus died to atone for what?

Is Eli a what, or a who?

Is Eli's House, as used in the scripture, a what, or a who?

Is God saying to Samual that the sin of Eli's house is not atoned? 0r is God saying that for Eli's house there is no atonement? Which means that inspite of everything Eli's house attempts to do to atone for their sin, there will be no atonement acceptable to God for them because in verse 13, "they continue to curse God"! First they will not attempt to atone for their sin because they are cursing the one who "receives" their sacrifice, and sacrifice of animals is not what pleases God!

If Eli's house were to come to God with contrite spirits and repentance, God would have forgiven their sins without animal sacrifice being offered up, just as he does for each of us in our time. But they, in their arrogance refused to be corrected, and refused to take on humility. Therefore God turned his back on them.

There is no limitation whatever on the Christ's atonement for sin!