Atonement Question

Wes this will be the last post and time i converse with you. My point has been well proven. It's amazing that instead of providing solid biblical proof and reasoning you resort to belittling and attacking; proof of your lack of real scriptural proof and willing to understand! I will once again by your own words prove you are unbiblical and illogical (you contradict yourself).


Here's your quote Wes:

By the way, I am not a Universalist! However I believe that Jesus's atonement for SIN is universally applied because it was to atone for SIN, and not for individual humans. Therefore, every where that Sin is, Atonement for sin is applied!


1) The universal application of sin results in Universalism If you believe that the atonement covers all sin.. then everyone gets into heaven. You are a Universalist if you believe that! Sin is what serperates us from God...if all sin is atoned for then all go to heaven! You cannot seperate these facts my brother!

2)I do agree tha Jesus atoned for sin yes... but on behalf of us...sin it is not a free floating idea or thought it is a part of every humans life. This is what connects the atonement and individuals(since we would both agree that salvation is individual) this sin is what seperates them from God. Again if everybody's sin is atoned for then they are righteouse before God. We know that this is not true therfore sin is NOT universally applie but applied indiviudally and further than that to the elect who will be saved from god's judgemenmt because of sin.

You contradict yourself by saying that you are not a universalist and that sin is universally applied... if Sin has been extinguished from all(being that is what seperates us from God remember the fall WES?) then all go to heaven.

Wes I have nothing more to say. I will not argue for argument's sake and will go elsewhere where I may be edified. I do not mind arguing with Arminianists,however your argument is frail and illogical and contradictory... you do not have any idea what you are talking about (even on the Arminianist' side.

God Bless! May You study and open your mind to Him....He is above all!

 

Chandler,

This tells me that you believe that atonement SAVES! It does not! Atonement has not saved one single human being! Salvation is through FAITH ALONE!

Salvation is not the purpose nor function of atonement. FAITH has always been what God wants from man! Atonement made by the Christ for the penalty of sin removed the barrier of Death for sin from man so that those who have faith can freely have everlasting life just as Jesus said in John 3:16. Those who do not have faith are judged, John 3:18, and cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14,15.

You are simply wrong, Believing that the Christ's atonement for sin is NOT universally applied to all the sins of the whole world in All times is a desecration of God the Son's deliverance of us FROM THE PENALTY OF SIN for Whosoever believe in him. NO, I DO NOT believe in UNIVERSALISM, which you define as Atonement!

NO NO NO! that is not right! Atonement does not make the sinner righteous before God! Atonement Pays the penalty so that the guilty need not die for his own sins, but can through FAITH, THAT WHICH MAKES US RIGHTOUS BEFORE GOD, have everlasting life John 3:16!

BOGUS THOUGHT! Sin has not been extinguished else Pastors would not sin! But they do! The penalty of sin has been paid so that we do not have to die in our sins or because of our sins. NNE GOES TO HEAVEN DUE TO ATONEMENT! Neither can one Get to heaven without atonement! FAITH ALONE is what makes one righteous before God!

Good, because I am not an Arminian, I am not Calvinist, I am not Catholic, I am not Baptist but attend a baptist church. I am Christian with Baptist persuasions! Frankly, I believe you are leaving because you cannot answer the tough questions of your own doctrines! You have yet to prove that my argument is frail, illogical or contradictory. All you know is that my argument opposes your belief system, and you cannot answer to it!

 

Hi Chandler;
Talk about attack what would you call this;

You haven't proven squat except that you are a very unreasonable person who feels they are the only one right in the world. I find it to be very typical of Calvinist thinking.

Talk about calling people names. Hey I'm a universalist because I believe the atonement paid the penalty for all the sin of men every where. Although I do not believe all men will accept Christ as Savior. Why because it is mans choice to be first to place trust in God.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ .

You know you really don't know very much about universal atonement. No one is saved by the atonement we are saved by Grace through faith. The atonement made that possible. Of course you know that.

That's too bad, and I was just getting ready to show you the wavering of Calvinism. Don't you want to learn the truth of what you believe?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

BY THE WAY I DO NOT CALL MYSELF A CALVINIST I'M A CHRISTIAN WHO BELIEVES IN THE BIBLE AND THAT GOD IS WHO HE IS....YOU ATTEMPT TO REFUTE MY ARGUMENT WITH NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT AT ALL.... MY FRIEND YOU CANNOT CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY, IN WHICH I HAVE A DEEPER APPRECIATION FOR GOD. LISTEN GUYS I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD BE ACCUSED OF ATTACKING AND KNOWING EVERYTHING..WHICH I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED..

GOOD DAY GENTLEMEN!

 

chandler...come back. CHANDLER...COME BACK!

Do not forsake me, Oh my darling!

 

Better not sing this in Church then, We have heard the joyful sound: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!Spread the tidings all around: Jesus saves! Jesus saves!Bear the news to every land, climb the mountains, cross the waves;Onward! ’tis our Lord’s command; Jesus saves! Jesus saves

Since you believe FAITH is not a Gift then if FAITH ALONE apart from the atonement saves, then you make yourself your own Savior since in your own words you state that Christ Atonement at the Cross has never saved anyone. Roman Catholicism is more orthodox than this view. A theology that robs Christ of His glory.


The Apostle Paul is clear that Salvation is by the Cross
Romans 5:8-10
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

In hearing all this about the Atonement of Christ not saving anyone I am reminded of C.H. Spurgeon's ridiculing the Arminian view of salvation.

THE PRAYER OF THE ARMINIAN by C.H. Spurgeon

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

 

Kiffen, If you've read the whole topic you might have noticed that some believe that the actual saving is done by grace! And, Indeed there is scripture that when taken out of its context seems to say so. There is much more direct scripture that says that belief (faith) is the necessary ingredient for salvation. And there are still others who say that the blood of Jesus saves.

My steadfast stance has been from the beginning and remains so, that While God's grace prevails, we are saved by God because of our faith in Him. We are saved into everlasting life because Jesus atoned for sin, that is, paid the penalty for sin so that I do not have to die for my sin but can instead through faith have everlasting life.

God the Son atoned for my sin, God the father Gave us His word, and God the father continues to abide in his grace toward us. I have faith in God. God saves me because I have faith in Him. So it is our faith alone through which we are saved.
As for singing Jesus Saves, Did I leave out the part that Jesus is GOD the SON? So raise your voices and your hearts in Song, singing Jesus Saves.

But I have not said there is nothing else to salvation but faith. Faith is the only thing that man can have that sets one apart from the others (sheep vs goats) for our salvation. I have never said that Jesus does not save us, nor that God does not save us. There is nothing in my theology that Robs the Christ of HIS Glory. Jesus told us that "whosoever believeth (have faith) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (salvation). I did not invent this theology, Jesus gave it to me from the Word of God.

 

Wes.

No Wes you still don't get it do you even after reading, "1SA 2:22 Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 23 So he said to them, "Why do you do such things? I hear from all the people about these wicked deeds of yours. 24 No, my sons; it is not a good report that I hear spreading among the LORD's people. 25 If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.
You say 'if Eli had disciplined'...'if they had repented' but the scripture is plain that it was the Lord's will to destroy the house, "His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. And the basis of the judgment was based on Eli's acts not the house because, "I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about;
Deal with that. The scripture cearly says the house was condemned because of Eli and nothing else. "I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about;

1 Sam 3:18 So Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Then Eli said, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."
Only a Christian would be capable of, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes."

Listen, I don't know who you try to fool with this nonsense, God saves me because I have faith in Him. You do not believe God saves you you believe you save you. The faith that you say you generate saves you not God. He just enables you to save yourself. The Great Enabler He is to you not your Saviour. You turn the precious blood of Christ into the wasted blood of Christ.
It is simply contradictory and deceitful to pretend that Salvation is of the Lord because Salvation is of Wes. So raise your voices and your hearts in Song, singing Wesus Saves.


johnp.

 

Why was Jehovah minded to slay them? It certainly doesn't say He was ALWAYS minded to slay them, but now He was, because of their sins which they brought upon themselves.

 

Hello RodnStaff it's good to meet you.

It doesn't say that their destruction was from everlasting and I am not saying it was. It was but I am not talking about that but about the Sovereignty of God in election and reprobation. The house suffered for it's sins that is true but that could have been true about any of us. My understanding of, "I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about... Makes me conclude that God says He will destroy Eli's house not for the sins of Eli's house but for Eli's sin.
1 Sam 3:13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them. 14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

'...because of the sin he knew about...' See what I mean?

It proves conclusively that it is God who chooses who is and who is not saved because He sent the house to Hell for the neglect of Eli.
Eli is held responsible for the fact that God swore an oath that there would be no atonement for the house of Eli. The house received judgment because of Eli. This makes limited atonement proved beyond question.

What you think?

johnp.

 

And all along you have been telling us it is grace that saves us, now you say it is God who determines who is saved, and who is not.

ON WHAT BASIS?

 

Um... That doesn't help me really, because if they were judged for Eli's neglect, it was still caused by Eli and not God, and it was Eli's neglect that caused his sons to sin, and their sin that drew God's judgement. Am I too simplistic or what?? I just am not seeing this as a proof of limited atonement.

 

Hello RodnStaff.

That doesn't matter for now does it? Those of Eli's house were condemned for Eli's fault and not their own means their free will has been breached. The other argument is another argument.

"I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about... Makes me conclude that God says He will destroy Eli's house not for the sins of Eli's house but for Eli's sin.

Isn't that correct? ...and their sin that drew God's judgement. Is not correct is it? "I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about...

The scripture says "I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about... Does it not?

johnp.

 

Wes.

Why don't you take some time and discover what you don't agree with?
But before you do; It proves conclusively that free will is a none starter does it not?

johnp.

 

JohnP;
Simply put Eli was in Hell when Christ Paid the price for our sins. It was far to late for him to change his mind. He had already been found guilty for the unforgivable sin "Rejection" He was found guilty because his sin was unto death.

You'd like to use this as proof for limited Atonement yet Calvinist have already stated it isn't limited. You really have a problem here because you haven't proven squat.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Why do you pray the light of Jesus should fall on Judas?
Would you like to give me your testimony please?
You have a command of God for this, " 1 Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..."
That is also a command of God, respect.
`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'
That is limited atonement and I do not need to prove black and white.

I told you you could not prove this so you said it anyway. Prove it.

I know there are a number of other questions people wanted from you why do you not answer them?

johnp.

 

JohnP;
Very well;
I was saved at 16 years old because I was convicted of my sins and convinced about God through hearing His word preached to me by a minister.
I was convicted by the demonstration of the Love of Jesus Christ. While He was hanging on the cross, after he had been beaten, cursed, and spit upon. He was in the middle of His own death that He didn't have to go through. He was tortured and crucified for my sins, because He wanted to be. So that I might be saved. The men who were responsible for His torture were in the Crowd that had gathered and cried out crucify Him. They were all against Him. His followers denied Him and separated them selves from Him. Not one defended Him that alone show denial. The only one who try to keep Him from being arrested was Peter and He denied Him by Oath. For me all this was torture to even hear about, But when He cried out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" I knew in my heart that this was really God in the flesh. Because His Love for us all is unconditional. He held no desire for vengeance.

I thought about that and as I did I realized that if it would have been me on that cross and I was Him they would have all died slow of the most horrible death I could imagine. The best thing is I'm not him. I would have reacted with vengeance, but my Lord reacted with perfect Love.
That was when I became convinced to Love Him, because of his unconditional Love.

Why do I say this?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Because it is my deepest hope that all will see the light and come to the light. His light may not be from me it could come from you or anyone else. In a forum such as this the light of the gospel isn't always visible especially with all the insults that get thrown back and forth. Sometimes it's gets dark and darkness cannot exist in the light. This tells me we need light.
Maybe I should Change it. It cause's such distress between you and Larry. NAW!
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

God's free will. He determines, the determination for salvation (grace - unmerited favor) Thus the determination is BASED not on merit (anything man does {which you say faith is from MAN}, thus it is not a respecter of persons. God determines not by what man DOES (this would be respecting their choices) but by His sovereign will.

 

The Apostle Peter would disagree with you about what it means for God not to be a "respecter of persons":

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said, 'In truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted by Him'." (Acts 10:34)

And again....

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear." (1 Peter 1:17)

Thus, the Apostle Peter uses the phrase "no respecter of person" to mean the exact opposite of what you claim it means. (But then, of course, neither Peter nor the other apostles were Calvinists )