How can utter destruction be finite punishment? Sounds more 'final' to me!
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is not inconsistent to say that some suffer more than others (as we see in Luke 12:45-49) so that it is not "infinite suffeirng for all) -- and ALSO to point out that the 2nd death is "utter destruction" in that it is a complete destruction of "both body and soul" Matt 10 where that completely destroys them and they do not survive, do not come back - "You will look carefully for them and will not find them".
They are to be utterly "CONSUMED" root and branch.
In Christ,
Bob
They are to be utterly "CONSUMED" root and branch.
In Christ,
Bob
Eternal torment equals infinite wrath. The fact that we humans could spend all eternity in hell, suffering for our sins and not make satisfaction or pay the penalty for our sins, does not mean Christ couldn't make satisfaction on the cross. The infinite wrath of God was poured out upon the only person who could take it and not be destroyed completely, The Son of God. The penalty was paid in those six hours or so on the cross. Scripture does not support that Christ actually went to hell to suffer. That would be unnecessary for Him.
That doesn't add up though. Finite punishment for one - albeit perfect-Who-happens-to-be-God - Man does not equate to infinite punishment for all other men; that just doesn't sound like justice to me and, since we know God is just, that doesn't sound like God...
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
It is not finite punishment. Jesus suffered, endured infinite wrath, or at least the wrath the Father required to satisfy His righteous demand that all sin be punished according to His nature. Humans could not endure such punishment for all eternity and be able to satisfy God's demand. Jesus, because He is God-man, could endure it in 6 hours where an eternity of suffering by people could not.
God's justice was satisfied and God's mercy was demonstrated. That sounds like an infinitely Holy God who abounds in mercy and love.
God's justice was satisfied and God's mercy was demonstrated. That sounds like an infinitely Holy God who abounds in mercy and love.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is no statement about God having "infinite wrath" in scripture - nor any text saying that He will "remain angry forever" or "remain in a state of wrath forever".
In fact the scriptures point to the "opposite" as true.
Further God declares DIFFERENT amounts of suffering for DIFFERRENT persons in hell (See Luke 12:45-49) rather than "infinite wrath for ALL" and "infinite torture for all".
And finally - in Rev 14:10 the punishment of the wicked takes place "IN THE PRESENCE" of the Lamb AND OF HIS HOLY ONES.
We (the saints) will be there for every MOMENT of the torment of our loved ones. They will not "suffer alone" and "without the care and concern" of their family and loved ones in heaven.
So instead of preparing yourself "not to be concerned about the torment of others" once you are saved - it is indeed a case of "being concerned" of "loving THEN even MORE than you love NOW" and yet having to "endure" the torment and suffering of those you love.
Because of this Rev 20 "fact" that takes place AFTER the millennium and after the 2nd resurrection (that takes place after the Millennium) - we see in scripture that it is not until Rev 21 that "all tears are wiped away" from the saints.
Only AFTER the Lake of Fire event is over - and the new earth created do we see all tears removed.
That too - is instructive.
In fact each one of these "pesky details" that are so persistently ignored are "important" (as it turns out).
In Christ,
Bob
In fact the scriptures point to the "opposite" as true.
Further God declares DIFFERENT amounts of suffering for DIFFERRENT persons in hell (See Luke 12:45-49) rather than "infinite wrath for ALL" and "infinite torture for all".
And finally - in Rev 14:10 the punishment of the wicked takes place "IN THE PRESENCE" of the Lamb AND OF HIS HOLY ONES.
We (the saints) will be there for every MOMENT of the torment of our loved ones. They will not "suffer alone" and "without the care and concern" of their family and loved ones in heaven.
So instead of preparing yourself "not to be concerned about the torment of others" once you are saved - it is indeed a case of "being concerned" of "loving THEN even MORE than you love NOW" and yet having to "endure" the torment and suffering of those you love.
Because of this Rev 20 "fact" that takes place AFTER the millennium and after the 2nd resurrection (that takes place after the Millennium) - we see in scripture that it is not until Rev 21 that "all tears are wiped away" from the saints.
Only AFTER the Lake of Fire event is over - and the new earth created do we see all tears removed.
That too - is instructive.
In fact each one of these "pesky details" that are so persistently ignored are "important" (as it turns out).
In Christ,
Bob
How can it be infinite wrath if only endured for a finite period?
Yours in Christ
Matt
On what basis do you make that last statement?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"eternity" is "infinite" there is no amount of double-speak that removes that fact.
If the price for ALL is "infinite punishment" (infinite wrath) then we need a new Bible and God and therefore a new Savior -- a new Gospel even.
God says He does NOT have infinite wrath and the Bible teaches that there are those who suffer less than others -- rather than "ALL suffer infinite torture".
What is more - Rev 14:10 the Lamb AND HIS HOLY ONES will be right there - for all of it.
It is in that fiery hell (of fire and brimstone) that God "destroys BOTH body AND soul". Matt 10:28.
If the price for ALL is "infinite punishment" (infinite wrath) then we need a new Bible and God and therefore a new Savior -- a new Gospel even.
God says He does NOT have infinite wrath and the Bible teaches that there are those who suffer less than others -- rather than "ALL suffer infinite torture".
What is more - Rev 14:10 the Lamb AND HIS HOLY ONES will be right there - for all of it.
It is in that fiery hell (of fire and brimstone) that God "destroys BOTH body AND soul". Matt 10:28.