Atonement theories?

[OldRegular]

If Jesus had come here as a human being and died of old age and rose again, would the at-one-ment, the reconciliation, been any less real, effective, or provided for?.

Yes. There would have been no atonement if Jesus Christ had died a natural death. Scripture teaches, and I posted some above for those who may not own a Bible, that Jesus Christ was the sacrifice for our sin. If you don't believe that then you have serious problems! Your denial of His sacrifice is nothing less than heresy!

 

[OldRegular]

Thank you for posting the scripture. Now go have a look in the mirror for an example of it.

:laugh: Yes MW I do hate the things that God hates!

Jesus Christ was the victor over sin, suffering, death, the devil, and hell.

Not if the following you posted were true! But I have already responded to that "stuff"!

Previous post by MW!
If Jesus had come here as a human being and died of old age and rose again, would the at-one-ment, the reconciliation, been any less real, effective, or provided for?

The penal substitution theory sows discord among the brethren. It was a 16th century invention of Calvin which was unknown and untaught by the earliest churches and for 1500 years.

Take that up with Calvin. I posted my belief about the atonement through Scripture.

I don't care what you think of me, so continue with your thoughts, and your words, if you feel you need to.

Frankly I don't think about you one way or the other except some of the "stuff" you apparently believe [edit]

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus died on the cross,and His death there was one of the steps in His work that provides for our reconciliation, salvation, and resurrection. The question is, what did His death mean? I steadfastly deny that it was satisfaction, penalty, and punishment to appease an angry, legalistic, vengeful, feudal God.

God's anger (wrath): Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.



God's vengence: Jdg_11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


It seems you have a serious problem with the one true and living God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Frankly I don't think about you one way or the other except some of the "stuff" you apparently believe makes you a heretic!

OR.... did you really feel called to go there? That is a heavy handed accusation your throwing at Michael.

 

[OldRegular]

OR.... did you really feel called to go there? That is a heavy handed accusation your throwing at Michael.

To deny the necessity of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for our salvation is heretical. MW does that when he posts:

Why does it matter so much to some how He died? Is it not enough that He died and rose again? If Jesus had come here as a human being and died of old age and rose again, would the at-one-ment, the reconciliation, been any less real, effective, or provided for?

 

[12strings]

God's anger (wrath): Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

God's vengence: Jdg_11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

It seems you have a serious problem with the one true and living God.

I agree. It seems the Christus Victor view does not account for a God who rightly punishes sin. It wants very badly to protect God from the image of being wrathful, or punitive...but there are numerous scriptures in which God declares himself to be just that...and uses that fact to warn people away from their sin.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I agree. It seems the Christus Victor view does not account for a God who rightly punishes sin. It wants very badly to protect God from the image of being wrathful, or punitive...but there are numerous scriptures in which God declares himself to be just that...and uses that fact to warn people away from their sin.

Ah, but the question is this: In order for God to forgive and pardon humans, does a wrathful, angry and vengeful God inflict the most heinous torture on His innocent Son? That is what penal substitution affirms -- that God cannot and must not forgive the guilty without punishing the innocent. That is abhorrent and makes God something that He most definitely is not. And yet people here accuse me of denying the one true God of the Bible? The god of penal substitution is not a loving, reconciling father but instead an angry, vengeful monster.

So, some of you really believe that the atonement could not have been made unless God beat His Son mercilessly and then killed Him? That is about as far from the teaching and example of Jesus -- the very Image of God -- as it's possible to get. This view was unknown in the earliest churches. It took the legalist murderer Calvin to come up with it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I will no longer respond in kind or in any other way to the haters who consider me a heretic and worse.

I know whom I believe, and I know He accepts me. I seek to follow the same Jesus who spoke the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

OR.... did you really feel called to go there? That is a heavy handed accusation your throwing at Michael.

It means a lot to me that you said that.

 

[Revmitchell]

That is what penal substitution affirms -- that God cannot and must not forgive the guilty without punishing the innocent.

This is a mischaracteriation, it is obvious you do not understand what you criticize.

The god [sic]of penal substitution is not a loving, reconciling father but instead an angry, vengeful monster.

And yet we have Jesus death on the cross anyway, so you have boxed yourself in a corner you cannot get out without changing your position.

So, some of you really believe that the atonement could not have been made unless God beat His Son mercilessly and then killed Him?

It matters not because regardless of what He could have done elseways what He did do still remains. And to oppose, so vehemently, the idea that He could not have done it any other way is in conflict with the fact that regardless of what else He could have done, the brutal death of His Son is still exactly what He did do.

That is about as far from the teaching and example of Jesus -- the very Image of God -- as it's possible to get. This view was unknown in the earliest churches. It took the legalist murderer Calvin to come up with it.

No it took God who did put His Son through it. Your position makes no sense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Simply put.

1 Corinthians 2:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

This is a mischaracteriation, it is obvious you do not understand what you criticize.


I understand it perfectly. I have studied it thoroughly for decades.



And yet we have Jesus death on the cross anyway, so you have boxed yourself in a corner you cannot get out without changing your position.


Absolutely untrue.


It matters not because regardless of what He could have done elseways what He did do still remains. And to oppose, so vehemently, the idea that He could not have done it any other way is in conflict with the fact that regardless of what else He could have done, the brutal death of His Son is still exactly what He did do.


God didn't do anything such as you assert.




No it took God who did put His Son through it. Your position makes no sense.

And here we have the crux of the matter: Unlike what you and the advocates of penal substitution hold, God did not inflict punishment on Jesus or kill him to satisfy His wrath, vengeful character, or our "sin debt". That is the perversion of the penal substitutionary theory.

Certainly Jesus died, and He died a brutal death at the hands of his captors and judges, but His death did not mean what Calvin contrived it to mean.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I do not wish to attack personally any who hold to penal substitution. I have friends who hold this view.

But I cannot help my passionate disagreement with the view. However, I am able to separate what I feel about the theory from what I feel about some who hold it.

 

[Revmitchell]

And here we have the crux of the matter: Unlike what you and the advocates of penal substitution hold, God did not inflict punishment on Jesus or kill him to satisfy His wrath, vengeful character, or our "sin debt". That is the perversion of the penal substitutionary theory.

Certainly Jesus died, and He died a brutal death at the hands of his captors and judges, but His death did not mean what Calvin contrived it to mean.

So you do not believe that Christ died on the cross? And that the Father sent Him to die on the cross?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Simply put.

1 Corinthians 2:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Excellent and true.

And we all see through a glass, darkly.

 

[Revmitchell]

And here we have the crux of the matter: Unlike what you and the advocates of penal substitution hold, God did not inflict punishment on Jesus or kill him to satisfy His wrath, vengeful character, or our "sin debt". That is the perversion of the penal substitutionary theory.

Certainly Jesus died, and He died a brutal death at the hands of his captors and judges, but His death did not mean what Calvin contrived it to mean.

Isaiah 53:6 - "the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53:12 - "yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."
Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Galatians 3:13 - "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us -- for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree."

 

[OldRegular]

I don't adhere to ant particular doctrine of the atonement. However, we cannot deny what Scripture tells us! And rejecting a particular doctrine of the atonement is no excuse for not believing what Scripture tells us.

Romans 8:32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Isaiah 53:5, 6
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaaiah 53:10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 20:28. Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Corinthians 15:3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Galatians 3:13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 5:2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

1 Peter 1:18,19
18. Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Revelation 5:5-9
5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And there are many more. It is a fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Denying that is to deny salvation in my opinion!

 

[Revmitchell]

God's anger (wrath): Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.



God's vengence: Jdg_11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


It seems you have a serious problem with the one true and living God.

Michael why did you avoid this post?

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not wish to attack personally any who hold to penal substitution. I have friends who hold this view.

But I cannot help my passionate disagreement with the view. However, I am able to separate what I feel about the theory from what I feel about some who hold it.

So what exactly did the death of jesus do for my sin debt owed to God?

How am I made right to god If jesus death was not in my stead/place?

Why did he even have to die?

 

[Van]

Hey Yeshua1, I see you never tire of asking the same questions then ignoring the answer. Were you spiritually set apart in Christ? Please answer yes or no. When you were did you undergo the circumcision of Christ? Please answer yes or no. Did you then arise in Christ a new creation? Please answer yes or no. Now think real hard, what happened to the sin debt owed to God during your conversion to a child of God? Remained on you or washed away by the blood of Jesus. Think hard, Yeshua1, because you have asked this question several times under several names.

So when Jesus died, did he become the means of salvation for specific individuals or did He become the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Think hard Yeshua1. Did Jesus pay a ransom for all or just for some of the ungodly? Think hard Yeshua1. I know this is very hard for you to understand.

Now why did Jesus have to die. Think really really hard, Yeshua1, is it possible you have never heard that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

How many times will Yeshua1 post the same silly questions, all of them answered in plan language in scripture. The answer my friends is blowing in the wind.