Atonement (what is written)

[JonC]

Brother, thank you for your reply. I understand how you are reading those passages. For my part, I am simply trying to stay with the words as they stand in the text itself, and I believe they speak plainly. I’m content to let Scripture say what it says, and I appreciate the conversation.

At some point, for the discussion to be profitable, we will have to explain our reasoning.

I say this because I am also trying to stay with the words as they stand in the text itself. I also believe they speak plainly and desire to lean on His words rather than by understanding.

Yet what we see as the obvious meaning of the text, the normal reading plainly obvious by the words God chose, differs greately.

This difference cannot be attributed to God's Word because we believe the exact same words and hold them as our standard.

I do not doubt that you would abandon your understanding in less than a heartbeat if yoy saw any point where it contradicts, changes, or adds to Scripture. I doubt it would even be a choice for you - as faithful believers we must be faithful to His words.

But that is why I left PSA behind. It was not by choice. I would have preferred to have stayed in that tradition. I had invited a lot in that understanding (a lot of money building a library, a lot of time studying, preaching and teaching).

I never would have been able to persuade my old self that PSA was wrong. The possibility it could be wrong never once entered my mind. It simply was not my choice to abandon the theory so it is impossible that I return.

 

[JonC]

@Anthony Pritchard

It is a rainy night, so very little will happen here (all transfers will stop during the storm, but I am stuck here until 6:45 am).

So barring any emergencies I will probably post some random insights, opinions, observations...you know, the usual heretical nonsense I tend to spout.

It is not to flood the thread but to offer how I view things for you to consider as you see fit. Maybe one of my points will hit where we see things differently.

If not, at least it will keep me occupied for 12.5 hours. So there's that.

 

[Aaron]

If you are talking about the sacrifice system, what occurred was the Israelites obeyed and offered a sacrifice. The priest took the blood that was shed into the Tabernacle to "make atonement for the sins of the people".

The priest also used some of the blood to atone for the tent of meeting


The Penal Substitution theory is a bit too superficial. It addresses sins through the law while ignoring God's justice manifested apart from the law (the actual gospel).

All men everywhere are commanded to repent. The obedient Israelite was still a penitent Israelite.

You're ignoring a host of rites concerning the body of the sacrifice. We don't just take the cup at Lord's table. There's the broken bread too. More on that later.

Still, the sacrifice was accepted for the Israelite, on his behalf, in his place. And the sacrifice for sin, received the sinner's judgment.

To say otherwise is in defiance of the text.

 

[JonC]

You're ignoring a host of rites concerning the body of the sacrifice. We don't just take the cup at Lord's table. There's the broken bread too. More on that later.

No, I am not ignoring them at all- quite the contrary.

The rite of sacrifice was the people offering an animal as a sacrifice. The animal was killed - its blood was shed. What God desired here was actually obedience. And killing the animal did not atone for sins - the priest took the blood into the Tabernacle and "made atonement for the sins of the people" by applying this blood.

Likewise, God set forth His Son as a Propitiation through His blood to be recieved by faith. Christ was obedient even to death - offering Himself as a guilt offering. He entered the Most Holy Place not made with hands through His blood and makes atonement for our sins. The blood of Christ cleanses from all unrighteousness.

We died with Christ. We will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

We observe this in the Lord's Supper. His body was broken and we observe this death. His blood was shed, the blood that cleanses us, and we partake.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I appreciate the thought that has gone into the various views expressed, but I’m not going to continue the discussion in this direction. I’m content with what Scripture says, and I’ve already stated my understanding plainly. As far as I’m concerned, we’ve exhausted this topic, and I won’t be engaging further.

 

[JonC]

I appreciate the thought that has gone into the various views expressed, but I’m not going to continue the discussion in this direction. I’m content with what Scripture says, and I’ve already stated my understanding plainly. As far as I’m concerned, we’ve exhausted this topic, and I won’t be engaging further.

That is fine. We can leave it at you and I both believe the biblical text (the actual words of God) but we have different understanings about what those words teach.

In the end we rest in His words (this is our common ground, how we are united in Christ) and not our own understanding.


While profitable to examine our different understandings it is not mandatory as neither of us leans on them (you understand the Atonement to be penal substitution but I am sure you hold that at arms length as I also hold my understanding with a grain of salt preferring God's actual words).

Our understanding is subjective and fluid (it changes), but God's Word is absolute and objective. His words stands.

 

[JonC]

We can say that it pleased God to persecute the early Christians, to put them to grief. They were persecuted by evil men, ultimately under the power of Satan, but this was God's predetermined plan. They suffered and died for Christ. They died in behalf of Him.

And through this God solidified and strengthened the church, and our faith spread. The persecutions were a visible example of our faith.

BUT I do not believe it is appropriate to say they suffered God's persecution or that they died as Christ's substitute.

 

[JonC]

One issue that has plagued this conversation is different philosophies of justice.

PSA theorists often give a classic courtroom illustration to demonstrate their theory of justice and how it was met on the cross

It goes something like this -

You stand before the judge convicted of a crime. The judge renders his sentence - a $20k fine or 10 years in jail. You are devastated. You cannot pay. But then another steps forward and declares that He has paid for your crime, served your sentence for you. Justice is served, the demands of the law are satisfied. You go free.


The problem is this is not justice. Justice is not focused on a law court collecting a payment. It is not focused on, as Calvin put it, "avenging the Law".

Punishment in the above example was not for the court but for the community. It was a penalty to prevent crime, even a penalty to change the behavior of the criminal.


Here is a better example -

You stand found guilty of murder. You are sentenced to death. Another steps in and tells you that you have been remade, while the guilty you will die you needn't worry. You have died to sin. You have been redeemed and cleansed. You will die bodily but you have been given a new life, a new identity. The "you" that is innocent will live. Although you die, so shall you live.

You die and are raised to life in Christ. You stand before the Judge. The Judge sees you are not the guilty man but instead you stand before Him made a new creation and conformed to the image of Christ.

The Judge explains to you that per the demands of the law the wicked will perish. But you are not the old you. You are not guilty, are not wicked. The requirements of the Law have been met but under a New Covenant apart from the Law.

 

[Aaron]

Here is a better example -

You stand found guilty of murder. You are sentenced to death. Another steps in and tells you that you have been remade, while the guilty you will die you needn't worry. You have died to sin. You have been redeemed and cleansed. You will die bodily but you have been given a new life, a new identity. The "you" that is innocent will live. Although you die, so shall you live.

You die and are raised to life in Christ. You stand before the Judge. The Judge sees you are not the guilty man but instead you stand before Him made a new creation and conformed to the image of Christ.

Here's a better example still and more parallel with the actual Gospel.

A woman stands guilty of adultery. She is divorced and sentenced to scourging. The judge steps down from the bench and lays aside his robes, and takes her place in the dock. He confesses her adultery as his own, and receives the sentence in his own body for her. After serving his sentence, he seeks her out, and marries her and has lots of kids.

The Judge explains to you that per the demands of the law the wicked will perish. But you are not the old you. You are not guilty, are not wicked. The requirements of the Law have been met but under a New Covenant apart from the Law.

It's righteousness that is apart from the law. Not justice. Justice is the law satisfied. The law fulfilled.

 

[JonC]

Here's a better example still and more parallel with the actual Gospel.

A woman stands guilty of adultery. She is divorced and sentenced to scourging. The judge steps down from the bench and lays aside his robes, and takes her place in the dock. He confesses her adultery as his own, and receives the sentence in his own body for her. After serving his sentence, he seeks her out, and marries her and has lots of kids.



It's righteousness that is apart from the law. Not justice. Justice is the law satisfied. The law fulfilled.

I disagre that this would be just (or that it parallels the gospel).

In terms of the gospel I do not believe Christ bearing our sin was Jesus claiming He had actually sinned.

Also, the punishment for adultery experienced by one innocent of the crime would not achieve justice. In justice punishment is not for the benefit of the judge but to effect actual justice - to make unrighteous into righteousness (by changing the criminal or by removing the criminal).

In your example the judge acted unrighteously. He cleared the guilty. He viewed punishment as an end unto itself. He considered the innocent to be guilty.

The judge and the criminal, in your example, have both violated the law and are both unrighteous. You need a new judge - a more honorable judge - to step in and condemn the unrighteous judge and bring the criminal to justice.

 

[JonC]

It's righteousness that is apart from the law. Not justice. Justice is the law satisfied. The law fulfilled.

No. The word translated "justice" is "righteousness". It is the SAME righteousness of God (justice of God) that was manifested through the law but has been manifested apart from the law.

 

[JonC]

So going back where @Anthony Pritchard and I had left off (just to summarize God's words regarding the Atonement):

1. Christ bore our sins, we now bear His righteousness. God laid our iniquity on Him, God lays His righteousness on us.

2. This was foreshadowed by the Levitical system. The Hebrew people offered a sacrifce for atonement. The priest took the blood into the Tabernacle and "made atonement for the sins of the people" by applying the blood to and around the altar.

3. In the Levitical system two goats were offered - one to God which was killed, the blood used to make atonement for sins and another for Azazel which bore the sins and was sent away.

4. God set forth Christ as a Propitiation through His blood to be received by faith. Christ entered the Most Holy Place not made with hands through His own blood and makes atonement for us.

5. Jesus gave Himself as a guilt offering, God offered His Son. Men estemmed Him stricken by God but He was bearing our sins. It was God's will, God's predetermined plan, to crush Him, to put Him to grief. It is by His stripes we are healed. He was made din for us. He became a curse for us.

6. Since we have flesh and blood, he too shared in our humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.


Now - the guardrails that keep us from error in putting that together:

1. God will deliver the Righteous.
2. God will not treat the Innocent as guilty.
3. God will not punish the Righteous.
4. God will not clear the guilty.
5. God makes Men new creations in Christ.
6. The blood of Christ cleanses from all unrighteousness.


I think we all can agree on the above because that is God's words even though we may disagree on how they are put together.

Understanding differ, but as Christians we do not lean on our understanding but on God's words. We are to text our understanding against "what is written" and reject what fails this test so as not to depart from "the faith once given".

If we do that then we are united in Christ even though we may hold different understandings.

 

[JonC]

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!

For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.

 

[JonC]

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name! Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.

The Lord works righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed. He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the people of Israel. The Lord is merciful and gracious,
slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.

As for man, his days are like grass; he flourishes like a flower of the field; for the wind passes over it, and it is gone, and its place knows it no more. But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him, and his righteousness to children's children, to those who keep his covenant and remember to do his commandments.

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers, who do his will! Bless the Lord, all his works, in all places of his dominion. Bless the Lord, O my soul!

 

[JonC]

Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

When a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.

 

[JonC]

The Almighty—we cannot find him; he is great in power; justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.

For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Stay far away from a false accusation. Do not kill the innocent and the just, because I will not justify the guilty.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you ...You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

Can wicked rulers be allied with you, those who frame injustice by statute? They band together against the life of the righteous and condemn the innocent to death.

Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations,

For the Lord loves the Just and will not abandon the Righteous.

 

[Aaron]

That is fine. We can leave it at you and I both believe the biblical text (the actual words of God) but we have different understanings about what those words teach.

The scribes couldn't have said it any better.

 

[JonC]

The scribes couldn't have said it any better.

This does not make any sence. The Scribes never said such a thing. In the Bible the Scribes instead interpreted the text for the people. Ultimately the Jewish leaders added to the Scriptures and followed their additions as if they were God's own words.

My comment was to @Anthony Pritchard . He was not willing to discuss how he arrived at his conclusions, which is fine (he does not have to). He and I believe the passages we had been discussing, but I do not believe his teachings are correct and I believe other passages (all of the biblical text) has to be accepted as true.

My point is if we both believe Christ bore our sins, but I do not accept another's ideas about what that also teaches, we still both believe Christ bore our sins.

I do not mean "all of Scripture" because obviously PSA theorists do not accept all of Scripture (they believe God treated Christ as if He were guilty, that God did do to clear the guilty, that the New Covenant is righteousness manifested through the law, etc.).

But insofar as the pasages that PSA theorists accept as true, we agree that those passages are true while not agreeing with the theory advocated.


Can wicked rulers be allied with you, those who frame injustice by statute?

 

[JonC]

Forgot this one -

It is not good to punish the innocent

 

[Aaron]

This does not make any sence.

It makes perfect sense. Wouldn't you say that Christians and Jews just have a different understanding of the law and the prophets?

What of the Eucharist ?

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. - Jhn 6: 54-56 KJV

Just a different understanding? Look at the actual words.