Atonement

[The Biblicist]

I guess the best way I can put it is that I believe all judgment has been given to the Son by the Father.

So, you are saying that the atonement removed all debt and penalties under law with regard to sin, and thus the only condemnatory sin remaining is unbelief and Christ's judgement no longer has to do with law or penalties for sin, but only for the sin of unbelief. Thus, by his atonement the only judge is Christ and the only judgement left is rewarding of believers according to their works and penalizing unbelievers for unbelief?

 

[JonC]

So, you are saying that the atonement removed all debt and penalties under law with regard to sin, and thus the only condemnatory sin remaining is unbelief and Christ's judgement no longer has to do with law or penalties for sin, but only for the sin of unbelief. Thus, by his atonement the only judge and judgement left is rewards believers according to their works and for unbelievers the penalization for unbelief?

I believe that those who do not believe are judged already and condemed because they do not believe in Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe that those who do not believe are judged already and condemed because they do not believe in Christ.

There are so many seeming conflicting statements in your presentation that I am having a hard time trying to formulate what you believe. My previous summary is:

So, you are saying that the atonement removed all debt and penalties under law with regard to sin, and thus the only condemnatory sin remaining is unbelief and Christ's judgement no longer has to do with law or penalties for sin, but only for the sin of unbelief. Thus, by his atonement the only judge is Christ and the only judgement left is rewarding of believers according to their works and penalizing unbelievers for unbelief? - Biblicist

So, if you were to reword my summary above how would you do it so that it correctly reflects your view. What would you delete, revise or expand in the above summary?

 

[JonC]

There are so many seeming conflicting statements in your presentation that I am having a hard time trying to formulate what you believe. My previous summary is:

So, you are saying that the atonement removed all debt and penalties under law with regard to sin, and thus the only condemnatory sin remaining is unbelief and Christ's judgement no longer has to do with law or penalties for sin, but only for the sin of unbelief. Thus, by his atonement the only judge is Christ and the only judgement left is rewarding of believers according to their works and penalizing unbelievers for unbelief? - Biblicist

So, if you were to reword my summary above how would you do it so that it correctly reflects your view. What would you delete, revise or expand in the above summary?

I would word it as I believe that the atonement canceled out the debt or accusations against us. The law is fulfilled in Christ and there is no condemnation in Him. Those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe stand condemned already because they have not believed.

That is as simple as I am able to state it. It is completely Christ-centered (not centered on the law but on Christ).

I hope this helps explain my view and where we depart.

 

[Reformed1689]

Penal refers to punishment, not a debt to be paid. I have a mortgage. It is not penal, although it may feel that way.

And what do they call punishment in courts? A DEBT to society. Punishment is a debt to be paid.

 

[Reformed1689]

But other people's opinions about what is heresy (which is often really concepts that oppose their view or they do not fully grasp) is inconsequential

Your view is heresy because it goes in the face of plain Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would word it as I believe that the atonement canceled out the debt or accusations against us.

Does "debt" mean something other than "penalty" against us? Does "us" refer to mankind or to the elect?

The law is fulfilled in Christ

How is the law "fulfilled" in Christ? Just prophetic fulfillment? Fulfillment with regard to meeting or exceeding its righteous standard? Fulfillment of satisfying its penal condemnation against sinners? All of the above or some, or would you reword or redefine these options?

condemned already because they have not believed.

Does any human enter the world from the womb in a condition or state of belief? Isn't the state of unbelief the root of all sin?

It is completely Christ-centered (not centered on the law but on Christ).

Should I understand "it" to refer to the new covenant in contrast to the old covenant which is centered on the law? If so, at what point in time does one enter into that covenant truth? Does that mean unbeleivers are still under the law and thus are to be considered on law criteria of penal condemnation?

I

 

[JonC]

Your view is heresy because it goes in the face of plain Scripture.

I said that thise who do not believe are already condemned because they do not believe in Christ. The verse you now say is beyond borderline but is a heresy (post 170) was written by John and spoken by Christ.

Had I referenced my post as Scripture (it was) would you still consider it heresy? Probably....but you would have kept that heresy to yourself. The sad part is you seem to have not noticed it was Scripture you were opposing.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, let me see if I follow you correctly. So death with regard to mankind as a whole is a corporate "penal" judgement as it is the penalty for sin because the law is penal or carries penal consequences. Hence, it is appointed unto man once to die because that is the corporate penalty for sin. However, death was never an individual penalty for sin but merely the individual experience for being part of corporate mankind which was penalized thus. Thus, Christ suffered "death" only because that was the corporate penalty for sin, not because of any sin found in himself, but purely because that was part and parcel for being made flesh or being part of corporate mankind, thus for being part of mankind he was subjected to this "sickness" which inflicted all mankind. This whole corporate penalization for moral violation of God's Law existed only under the old covenant, or the law.

However, when Christ established the new covenant, the criteria for judging sin was changed due to the atonement from "penal and moral" condemnation to only "condemnation" for unbelief in Christ. Hence, because of the atonement sin and death are now no longer regarded by God as moral or penal condemnations corporately or individuallly but the only condemnation is unbelief in Christ. Hence, God was reconciled to the whole world by the atonement and now the only judge is Christ and the only condemnation is unbelief in Christ.

Those who remain in unbelief will be raised to corruption and condemned for unbelief and cast into Gehenna, not based on any kind of moral or penal condemnation but based upon their rejection of atonement.

So, based on the atonement the "penal and moral" criteria is removed for all mankind whether they are "in" or "outside" of Christ?

Is this what you believe?

Good job of isolating the root cause of the misguided thoughts.
When the fall is misunderstood more serious error begins to surface.
Clear statements of scripture such as Romans 3,romans5:12-21 become the target rather than the God given solution.

 

[JonC]

Thread will be closed this evening. It has exceeded the number of posts. Feel free to start another.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thread will be closed this evening. It has exceeded the number of posts. Feel free to start another.

It would be nice if you would kindly answer my last questions before closing this thread.

 

[JonC]

It would be nice if you would kindly answer my last questions before closing this thread.

I will when I get home.

 

[JonC]

And what do they call punishment in courts? A DEBT to society. Punishment is a debt to be paid.

We should never let the secular define God. Perhaps that is why you viewed my statement that that the lost are already condemned because they do not believe in Christ as "not plausible".

 

[The Biblicist]

I will when I get home.

Thank you!

 

[JonC]

Thank you!

No problem. @Reformed is right - we wright for those who are not actually involved in the thread.

I am getting back and cannot adequately address your question at this time. I will , and if you have more then please feel free to copy my reply onto a new thread - just let me know.

I do not expect us to agree, but I would like you to understand where I am coming from.

The beach was nice, BTW. But there was a lot of jelly fish washed up this morning.

 

[JonC]

Does "debt" mean something other than "penalty" against us?

To me it does, but perhaps because “debt” is an English word that means something other than “penalty” against us. “Debt contains baggage. It is rarely used in Scripture to describe man and sin (it is used to describe, depending on translation, the charges of the law against man which have ben canceled out….but this goes back to metaphor).

How is the law "fulfilled" in Christ?

Quite simply, Christ IS the fulfillment of the law. The Law and the prophets bore witness to God’s righteousness manifested apart from the law.

Just prophetic fulfillment?

No. see my last comment.

Fulfillment with regard to meeting or exceeding its righteous standard?

No. Fulfillment in terms of God’s righteousness manifested apart from the law – i.e., the “New Covenant”.

Fulfillment of satisfying its penal condemnation against sinners?

No. Fulfillment as the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law, not through it.

All of the above or some, or would you reword or redefine these options?

I would say that the law is fulfilled in Christ because it demonstrates not only the moral righteousness of Christ but also the moral righteousness of God’s people. It is not an issue of “obeying the Law” but an issue of being “in Christ”. God causes us to obey.

Does any human enter the world from the womb in a condition or state of belief?

No. Human beings enter the world under the curse of sin. They will die. This is the wages of sin that all share. But they have not sinned until they sin.

Isn't the state of unbelief the root of all sin?

No. I think it is obvious that disbelief is not the root of all sin. Scripture tells us that the root of all sin is human desire when man gives into temptation and our lusts “conceive” and produce sin. Adam, for example, believed. Yet Adam sinned. We have to stay closer to Scripture (Consider James 1-3).

Should I understand "it" to refer to the new covenant in contrast to the old covenant which is centered on the law

No. What I mean by “it” is redemption. Redemption is entirely Christ-centered.

Does that mean unbeleivers are still under the law and thus are to be considered on law criteria of penal condemnation?

No. The unbelievers are condemned already. They are condemned because they have not believed. This is something @davidtaylorjr considered the passage “not plausible”, but it is a reference to John’s words in Scripture.


Now that I have answered each question I am going to close the thread. Please feel free to start another address whatever questions you feel need more conversation.



I’ve enjoyed our dialogue here – even though we do disagree. You have helped solidify a few points in my own mind.

 

[JonC]

This thread is closed due to the number of posts (we are over 200 posts).

Please feel free to start another thread, either to address something in this one or to branch out in a new direction.