Atonement

And what are you doing in putting me down? You know, "The pot calling the kettle black", remove the beam from thine own eye so that you can see the splinter in mine.

 

Scott;

I don't believe it is a condition. The word never says that it is. You would have to add to scripture to make it say that

Then why don't you do that for us so that we may all see what you are talking about. Scripture never say man's ability is impared because of Adam's sin.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

 

If the terms blind, deaf, and dead do not imply impaired ability then do they mean anything at all?

 

If what you say here is true, then getting saved removes the sin nature from us...right? Why do "saved persons. "Christians", sin then?</font>[/QUOTE] Nope. It ultimately will when we are "glorified". But in this life, there will continue to be a raging battle per Romans 7.

 

Remind me by quoting the entire post containing the question you say that I refuse to answer.</font>[/QUOTE] Grace means "unmerited favor".

If everyone can make the choice to believe (resulting in faith) while in their natural spiritual condition and some do while others don't then we must agree that this was a "good" choice. If salvation is based on God recognizing one's faith which resulted from making the good choice(s) to believe then how is that not merit?

Nope. I gave you the dictionary definition in another thread. The relevant definition is: "A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue:"

The goodness to make the correct decision to believe rather than reject is a demonstration of merit.

Saying something doesn't make it true. No one chooses to believe unless the Spirit changes them first.

The choice to believe is "good" or "wise", is it not? If it is then it is a choice of merit.

 

So you think that deciding that some elements of knowledge may be true enough for you to put your faith in is a Quality or virtue? Then you are guilty as sin just like you are attempting to make me! You believe in Calvinism's teachings which are nothing more that some elements of knowledge that you believe are worthy of your trust!

Get real! You are as inaccurate to life as Calvinism, not worthy of being listened to!

 

Truer words were never spoken by man.

Saying something doesn't make it true.

 

Hi Scott J;

Depends on who these words were said to. I'm not Jewish so being blind and having ears dull of hearing do not apply to me. These things came to the Jews because of there rejection of Christ. Spiritually dead doesn't mean it is any thing like physcial death. If it did, then those sent to hell don't know anything about there own torment. Spiritual death is seperation from God because of unbelief. It doesn't mean we have to be born again in order to believe and scripture never says so. However when we are saved we are suppose to be dead to sin but I haven't met one Christian who doesn't sin Have you?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So you think that deciding that some elements of knowledge may be true enough for you to put your faith in is a Quality or virtue?</font>[/QUOTE] No question about it. You think it is not?

When you can label a decision "good" or "bad" then that involves the quality of the decision. When a person of his own intellect, good will, ability to recognize, etc. chooses good over evil then that is a virtuous choice.

In any other area of human experience, I doubt that you or any other rational human being would deny the merit of making good, wise choices.

I really can't see a legitimate reason for you to avoid that conclusion here.

"Guilty as sin"? What have I implied that whoever is wrong about this is guilty of other than being wrong. I have little doubt that I am wrong quite often. I could be wrong about this but to this point I have not seen a convincing argument against my position nor for a better one.

In fact, the arguments made by non-calvinists here have been more convincing to me that calvinism is correct than the pro-calvinist arguments- especially yours of late.

Without stating it in so many words, you seem to doggedly cling to the idea that man's choice must remain completely, independently sovereign in belief=&gt;faith=&gt;salvation. Yet you cannot answer even the simplest objection to the idea and in fact show anger at being asked.

I believe in calvinism because I think it is the best system for reconciling and evaluating the scriptures and principles related to this topic. That is a "free will" choice on my part.

I was saved because God opened my eyes to the truth of the gospel and saved me. Only God deserves any of the glory for my salvation.

You have no legitimate basis for such an offensive comment nor generalization.

You can't directly answer simple, obvious questions so that makes me "inaccurate to life" and "not worthy to be listened to"?

It appears I am saying things you cannot refute and asking things that you cannot answer so you don't want to hear it.

That's fine. I am not "forcing" you to interact to me.

 

Decision making IS NOT salvation! Therefore the decision is not of any intrinsic value, whereas the result of a decision is! The result of deciding to believe is FAITH in what you believe. It is that FAITH that "marks you" for salvation, not the decision to believe.

 

Depends on who these words were said to.</font>[/QUOTE]Mike, Though I don't interact with you often, I have learned from your comments and generally respect the coherence of your arguments... but this is an exception.

It means being separated from God by sin.

So the natural man does discern the things of the spirit?

Maybe you can answer the question Wes keeps avoiding.

If we make a choice to believe then that must be characterized as a "good" choice considering the fact that others do not make the same choice and are condemned, right?

If this is a good choice then how can that not be considered "merit"? How does that not involve God recognizing the "good" choice of one while rejecting the "bad" choice of another? And if that merit is the basis for salvation then how can it be considered "grace" (the unmerited favor of God)?

 

You believe that man cannot make a sound decision without first being regenerated!
You believe that man is so depraved that he does not ever think about things spiritual.
You believe that man cannot do anything relative to personal faith in God unless God first regenerates him so that he can.

I believe man can and does make sound decisions in virtually every aspect of life based on knowledge gained through the natural senses, including reading of God's word, and seeing movies such as "the Passion", "The Shoes of the Fisherman", "Jesus", "Jesus of Nazareth", A man called Peter, and others. Some denominations call such things "witnessing tools".

I believe that God does not make Junk, therefore the man that God made in his image is not totally depraved, is not corrupted beyond redemption, is not incapable of hearing and believing.

I believe that man can and does have faith unto himself, that is within himself, that is the substance of what man hopes for, the evidence of what the man does not yet see. I believe that man can have faith in virtually anything, and that includes God and Jesus, and heaven and eternal life, and that he does not have to be "regenerated" in order to have faith, but rather it is the faith that does the regenerating, makes the demands for repentance, and change. God did not make any Junk! Man is the crowning achievement of God's creation, He said so in the beginning, and He said so again a mere 2000 years ago by giving us Jesus to remove the death penalty from us!

FAITH resides in the one needing it, and not the one who needs it NOT! Man can only hope for eternal life, and man cannot see it, hence? FAITH! Faith cometh by hearing, not by implantation, and Hearing by the Word of God (audibly, visually, graphically). Man reads the scriptures and learns of God. That information is retained in the brain, the spirit evaluates the information and either accepts it, rejects it, or puts it on hold for later re-examination. That which is accepted by the spirit is the formation of faith, that which is rejected, cannot be part of faith, that which is stored for later re-examination will be recalled as other information triggers the spirit to recall it and it either reinforces the faith or it may cause the spirit to reject the previously formed faith.

All of man's faith comes from the knowledge man has and uses. God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish". Why would God say that if faith was not based on knowledge?

 

The legitimate basis it that you refuse to see the truth, you refuse to think things through. You reject off-hand that which does not fit the pattern of your belief system, a system you had to learn to accept in the first place.

you have been provided the answers to simple, obvious questions, but simply cannot recognize the answer because it is not what you expected.

So far you have said nothing that I have not been able to refute.

 

Hi ScottJ;

Work that has merit is what you do for others not for your self. We are the ones who have to trust that Christ will save us. Eph 1:12 in order to have trust we must hear the gospel and hope that what it is saying is true. This is the hope for the unseen. We haven't seen it, we can't know that we will have it, we can only hope. Paul defined faith as hope for the unseen. Believing is the doing of these things and is not a work if it were then this verse would not be true.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If belief is a work then how can we believe and it not be a work?,. THis verse is talking about not having any meritable works but still believing. There is not one dictionary that defines belief as a work why would people think this is a work?
What goes on in the mind is not a work.

" Belief A persuasion of the truth, or an assent of mind to the truth of a declaration, proposition or alleged fact, on the ground of evidence, distinct from personal knowledge;"

Work and belief has nothing to do with each other.
People don't believe for a reward they either simply believe or not. the reward is unmerited favor
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

ScottJ;
The rest of your questions.

Was Agrippa almost convinced or not. In order for Him to be almost convinced he had to hear and understand what Paul said. No one contemplates a decision with out knowing the basics. The deeper things of the spirit aren't necessary for hope.

We very obviously choose to accept what we hear as truth or not. Yet as in my previous post this is done because you want to believe it. It is God's desire for us to love Him and we cannot love with out a free desire to do so. This must be our desire or it would be a false love.

I don't believe we are chosen based on anything we do. We can only hope the rest is already decided. Paul said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Jailer, he said it to was seeking God to be saved from his sins.

Doesn't a shepard receive the sheep who come by there on choice in to the pen?
Then locks them up and goes looking for the rest to convince them to come as well.

We have access to grace by faith;
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Grace is favor and you don't think that if I believe, God will grant me that grace, when His word says He will.
We are saved by hope, and grace.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
So tell me how can one who already has eternal life hope for it?
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike