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Attention all sick pro-aborts
- Thread starter Jefferson
- Start date
I would have guessed that we are much aligned in our desire to oppose evil where we find it.
We might even agree on what is evil, to some extent. But I think we sharply disagree on how to oppose it.
It's not for me to tell you whether what you are hearing is really the Holy Spirit, if that Spirit tells you to have screaming matches.
It seems doubtful to me; that's all I'll say.
Jeff, do you honestly believe that John the Baptist went into Herod's court and screamed at Herod? Or did he rebuke--told--Herod that he was committing sin? There is a difference, whether you wish to admit it or not.
Jeff, the law of first usage is broken several dozen times in the Old Testament. Look at Genesis 1. Most conservatives would tell you that in Genesis 1, when it mentions "day," it means a 24 hour day. By the law of first usage, we should then be able to look at Genesis 2:4 and say, "Oh, look; the earth and the heavens were made in one 24 hour day." Except that if we did that, it would contradict Genesis 1.
I'm really disappointed that you would lean on the Hebrew definition of a Greek word. Just for grins and giggles, why don't you provide Baker's definition of the Greek word that was used?
Finally, Jeff, if you have peace through the victory Christ won for us, then why are you still fighting the battle?
Should we stand against evil? Yes. Should fight a battle that we know is already won? Seems a bit silly....
And yes, there's a difference between standing against evil, and fighting it....
[ June 14, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
Jeff, the law of first usage is broken several dozen times in the Old Testament. Look at Genesis 1. Most conservatives would tell you that in Genesis 1, when it mentions "day," it means a 24 hour day. By the law of first usage, we should then be able to look at Genesis 2:4 and say, "Oh, look; the earth and the heavens were made in one 24 hour day." Except that if we did that, it would contradict Genesis 1.
I'm really disappointed that you would lean on the Hebrew definition of a Greek word. Just for grins and giggles, why don't you provide Baker's definition of the Greek word that was used?
Finally, Jeff, if you have peace through the victory Christ won for us, then why are you still fighting the battle?
Should we stand against evil? Yes. Should fight a battle that we know is already won? Seems a bit silly....
And yes, there's a difference between standing against evil, and fighting it....
[ June 14, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
Don, you wrote:
[ June 15, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
I don't think John the Baptist femininly cooed at Herod like today's typical Christian wimp. Do you deny that Acts 15:39 allows for nearly violent displays of righteous indignation where appropriate?
The Bible should not be interpreted in a woodenly literal way. Context, syntax and lexicography along with a good, healthy dose of common sense need to be used to indicate different shades of meaning. For example, I don't deny that we should live our lives in such a way that we do not unnecessarily provoke someone's wrath. But sometimes it is necessary. One of the verses you quoted was Romans 12:18, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." It's not possible to live peaceably with people who advocate murdering children, not if you want to maintain a clear conscience before God.
The battle has not been won. The last time I checked, abortion has not yet been recriminalized.
[ June 15, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
You didn't answer my question. Do you honestly think John the Baptist engaged in a screaming match with Herod?
The battle between good and evil has already been won, Jeff.
Jeff, when was the last time you engaged in a screaming match where all you yelled--the only thing you yelled--was, "God loves you, and that baby, and doesn't want that baby killed"? As opposed to name-calling and screaming at people that they're hell-bound murderers?
It's interesting that you bring up Romans 12:18 as an example...since the verses around that passage, applying your statement of using context, syntax, and lexicography, say "recompense to no man evil for evil." "Provide things honest in the sight of all men." "If thy enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink."
Not only that, but, even if one is screaming something about 'love' to another person, that other person picks up the emotional content of the message at least as strongly and probably more strongly than the content in the words in it.
From earliest infancy we learn that people who scream at us are angry with us.
Why would we believe that someone who screams at us loves us?
(Except in an emergency, say, as in "get out of the street - a car is coming!!!")
So, why would we believe that that person who is screaming at us, has anything to tell us about love?
How could it make sense that a loving God could have sent someone to come scream at us?
I'm far from convinced that it does.
Don, you wrote:
Now, you didn't answer my question: Do you deny that Acts 15:39 allows for nearly violent displays of righteous indignation where appropriate? Yes or no?
You can hold people's hands on their way to hell if you want to in order to make absolutely, positively sure at all costs that they will like you, but I'm not that cruel. I'm willing to risk being disliked in order to get people to realize they need to ask God for forgiveness. Are you?
Why should a person ask God for forgiveness when Christians (who are God's ambassadors) tell them they are not so bad? Forgiveness for what? Sins? What sins? Any specific sins? No Christian ever told them they were sinners so why would they ask God for forgiveness?
[ June 15, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
If Herod listened to John with respect, no. But if Herod was impishly obstinate, yes.
Now, you didn't answer my question: Do you deny that Acts 15:39 allows for nearly violent displays of righteous indignation where appropriate? Yes or no?
If you saw a man raping a child in a park you would not try to stop him because "the battle between good and evil has already been won?"
Well, if he is the one who is doing the killing then that makes him a "murderer" so why not call a spade a spade? Oh,yeah, I forgot. Because that would make him not "like" me. Horror of horrors!!!
Because they are hell-bound murderers and it would be unloving to withhold that information from them.
You can hold people's hands on their way to hell if you want to in order to make absolutely, positively sure at all costs that they will like you, but I'm not that cruel. I'm willing to risk being disliked in order to get people to realize they need to ask God for forgiveness. Are you?
Why should a person ask God for forgiveness when Christians (who are God's ambassadors) tell them they are not so bad? Forgiveness for what? Sins? What sins? Any specific sins? No Christian ever told them they were sinners so why would they ask God for forgiveness?
It is evil to withold the truth that hell-bound murderers are in fact hell-bound murderers.
[ June 15, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
All:
Tell me if you think this Christian talk-show host (Bob Enyart) sinned on May 1st of this year when he started literally screaming at one of his callers.
You can listen to the show at http://www.kgov.com
It's the May 1st show entitled, "Christian Sarah defends terror." Her phone call begins 31 minutes and 30 seconds into the show.
[ June 15, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
Tell me if you think this Christian talk-show host (Bob Enyart) sinned on May 1st of this year when he started literally screaming at one of his callers.
You can listen to the show at http://www.kgov.com
It's the May 1st show entitled, "Christian Sarah defends terror." Her phone call begins 31 minutes and 30 seconds into the show.
[ June 15, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
I would - if I could and it wouldn't endanger me (because I have children of my own that I know God has called me to raise - it would be foolish to assume I'm supposed to help that child I don't know instead of my own if I had to choose...)
The actual link is http://kgov.com/BEL/2002/20020501-BEL086.ram
The screaming doesn't actually start until around the 50 minute mark.
The young lady started off with her point that Mr. Enyart was espousing a generalized hatred for Palestinians. She was stating that not all Palestinians supported the terrorist acts, not all Palestinians celebrated in the streets. Mr. Enyart agreed with this more than once, but kept switching the subject back to governments.
The young lady also stated in the beginning of the conversation that she had lived in Jordan for at least a year, and had first-hand knowledge of what was actually going on over there, as well as receiving e-mails from friends still in the area. Mr. Enyart admitted that most of his knowledge came from what he has read.
The young lady's remark was that the Palestinians started the suicide bombings because the nation of Israel was encroaching upon Palestinian territory. While she's naive and not well-informed on the subject, she was not actually attempting to justify terrorism.
Did Mr. Enyart sin? Of course not. No one has accused Jefferson of sinning for screaming at other people, either. Did Mr. Enyart completely turn off any chance of winning the young lady to a complete knowledge of the saving grace of Christ.
Without a doubt.
The screaming doesn't actually start until around the 50 minute mark.
The young lady started off with her point that Mr. Enyart was espousing a generalized hatred for Palestinians. She was stating that not all Palestinians supported the terrorist acts, not all Palestinians celebrated in the streets. Mr. Enyart agreed with this more than once, but kept switching the subject back to governments.
The young lady also stated in the beginning of the conversation that she had lived in Jordan for at least a year, and had first-hand knowledge of what was actually going on over there, as well as receiving e-mails from friends still in the area. Mr. Enyart admitted that most of his knowledge came from what he has read.
The young lady's remark was that the Palestinians started the suicide bombings because the nation of Israel was encroaching upon Palestinian territory. While she's naive and not well-informed on the subject, she was not actually attempting to justify terrorism.
Did Mr. Enyart sin? Of course not. No one has accused Jefferson of sinning for screaming at other people, either. Did Mr. Enyart completely turn off any chance of winning the young lady to a complete knowledge of the saving grace of Christ.
Without a doubt.
You're guessing?
Try reading the passages again, and see if you can find any indication of John the Baptist screaming at Herod....
Acts 15:39 does not indicate "nearly violent acts of righteous indignation."
It says the contention was so sharp between them, they parted ways.
The word for "contention" and "sharp" here is "paroxusmos" (same Greek word for both). It also means "irritating, incitement." The sentence could just as easily read "the irritation between them was so irritating, they parted ways."
So no, I don't believe that Acts 15:39 justifies near violent acts of righteous indignation. For the simple fact that the verse says "they parted ways" instead of indicating that they acted out on their contention.
Jeff, as much as you might think otherwise, I'm not the least bit worried about people liking me. You don't like me one bit, but we're still having somewhat of a civil discussion, aren't we?
What I worry about is whether people see God in me, and what god they're seeing.
I've told you and others before, and you know it: I have no problem telling an abortion doctor that what he's doing is wrong, and that he's facing the ultimate punishment for his actions. I have no problem telling a homosexual that what he/she is doing is not pleasing to God. I have no problem telling an adulterer or a fornicator that God absolutely does not like what they're doing.
I also have no problem telling those same people that God does love them, enough to send His only Son to die on the cross for them, that all they have to do is believe on Him, and surrender their lives to Him. That God will forgive them, if they repent of their ways.
Originally posted by Don:
Jeff, as much as you might think otherwise, I'm not the least bit worried about people liking me. You don't like me one bit, but we're still having somewhat of a civil discussion, aren't we?
You don't know Jefferson doesn't like you, based simply on interactions on this board, do you?
Maybe there's been exchange between you I haven't seen.
I don't sense that it's his style to give indications of 'liking' people, fwiw...
So...who knows...he might be quietly impressed that you are challenging what he says so strongly...
[ June 15, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]
Jeff, as much as you might think otherwise, I'm not the least bit worried about people liking me. You don't like me one bit, but we're still having somewhat of a civil discussion, aren't we?
You don't know Jefferson doesn't like you, based simply on interactions on this board, do you?
Maybe there's been exchange between you I haven't seen.
I don't sense that it's his style to give indications of 'liking' people, fwiw...
So...who knows...he might be quietly impressed that you are challenging what he says so strongly...
[ June 15, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]
Actually, with all due respect, I don't believe we can ever say those things with that degree of certainty.
Sin is a matter of the heart, which we can't see as God does.
And so is salvation. And we don't know how God is at work in someone's heart through even things that we think would seem sure to put others off the gospel.
She was already a Christian. That's one of the reasons why Enyart got so mad at her. She should have known better than to try to justify any nation deliberately targeting children for murder for any reason whatsoever.
And it was good for nonchristians who listened to the show to finally hear just one Christian express that not all sins are equal. I wouldn't scream at someone for stealing a pair of shoes. The pathetic thing is that most Christians will never yell at anyone for any reason including the rape of a child in a public park.
I can't stand Christian wimps.
[ June 15, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
fromtheright
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Jefferson,
Is it nice, respectable Christians who bomb abortion clinics or you fanatics?
BTW, I am pro-life/anti-abortion but fanatics blacken the cause.
Is it nice, respectable Christians who bomb abortion clinics or you fanatics?
BTW, I am pro-life/anti-abortion but fanatics blacken the cause.