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Attention all sick pro-aborts
- Thread starter Jefferson
- Start date
Actually, Jeff ol' boy, I'm glad you like Mr. Hyles, and seem to have a reverence for him. It's just that, I can't find a single article about Mr. Hyles ever standing in front of an abortion clinic.
I'd be happy to read the article(s) if you know where I can find them.
While I'm sure he condemned abortion--just as we all do--I can't find anything that shows he ever stood outside an abortion clinic screaming at the doctors and the women....
Ya know, I also can't find a single thing on Fred Phelps' web site about any of them standing in front of abortion clinics, either. Quite a lot of pictures about demonstrations in their main area of concern, but not a single one in front of an abortion clinic. While I'm sure they condemn abortion, too, apparently they don't consider it as important as homosexuality....
[ June 16, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
I'd be happy to read the article(s) if you know where I can find them.
While I'm sure he condemned abortion--just as we all do--I can't find anything that shows he ever stood outside an abortion clinic screaming at the doctors and the women....
Ya know, I also can't find a single thing on Fred Phelps' web site about any of them standing in front of abortion clinics, either. Quite a lot of pictures about demonstrations in their main area of concern, but not a single one in front of an abortion clinic. While I'm sure they condemn abortion, too, apparently they don't consider it as important as homosexuality....
[ June 16, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
Don:
Where did I say that I think everyone should protest in front of abortion clinics? God has not called everyone to the same ministries. I don't think that a mother of three children should risk getting arrested in front of an abortion clinic when her children need her at home.
I especially do not criticize those anti aborion counselors who gently counsel and try to persuade the women (and girls) to choose adoption instead of abortion. And they (well, most of them) do not criticize us either. We just have different tactics and temperments.
Who I am criticizing are Christians who criticize those of us who are trying to save lives just because they would not personally use those tactics. If they don't want to, I don't have a problem with that just so long as they stay out of the way of my ministry. I get enough flak from nonchristian pro-aborts. I don't need twice as much flak from wimpy Christians who are absolutely petrified that their nonchristian co-workers will think they are just like us fanatics. Most Christians have got this attitude that if we fanatics would just go away then they could more easily blend in and be accepted with the rest of society and live stress-free, happily ever after. So what if our dissapearance would result in more babies being torn apart limb from limb in the womb without any merciful anesthic provided for those precious babies? The important thing is that the rest of the Christians out there will be "accepted" and "liked." They never have an unkind word to say about anyone. Not mass murderers, no one. That would be "unloving." But Christian anti-abortion protesters? We get their full wrath. Why do you think this is?
[ June 16, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
Where did I say that I think everyone should protest in front of abortion clinics? God has not called everyone to the same ministries. I don't think that a mother of three children should risk getting arrested in front of an abortion clinic when her children need her at home.
I especially do not criticize those anti aborion counselors who gently counsel and try to persuade the women (and girls) to choose adoption instead of abortion. And they (well, most of them) do not criticize us either. We just have different tactics and temperments.
Who I am criticizing are Christians who criticize those of us who are trying to save lives just because they would not personally use those tactics. If they don't want to, I don't have a problem with that just so long as they stay out of the way of my ministry. I get enough flak from nonchristian pro-aborts. I don't need twice as much flak from wimpy Christians who are absolutely petrified that their nonchristian co-workers will think they are just like us fanatics. Most Christians have got this attitude that if we fanatics would just go away then they could more easily blend in and be accepted with the rest of society and live stress-free, happily ever after. So what if our dissapearance would result in more babies being torn apart limb from limb in the womb without any merciful anesthic provided for those precious babies? The important thing is that the rest of the Christians out there will be "accepted" and "liked." They never have an unkind word to say about anyone. Not mass murderers, no one. That would be "unloving." But Christian anti-abortion protesters? We get their full wrath. Why do you think this is?
[ June 16, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
Oh, don't pull a Colonel Jessup on us, Jeff.
Why do you get the full wrath of Christian anti-abortion protestors? Because you make Christians look like hateful, spiteful, just-out-of-the-asylum screaming meemees?
I don't know, Jeff. As I said before, I'm not after people to like me. I don't care whether they like me or not. What I worry about is whether people see Christ in me or not, and whether your actions are ruining my witness and my chance to lead someone to Christ.
You ever watched yourself and/or any other "screamers" on TV, after being filmed while protesting, and placed yourself in the shoes of an atheist or seeker of God? Seeing those people, would you honestly go to someone like that to find out more about Christ?
Jeff, I don't have any intention of changing your mind. I know you, and how long you've been at this. I'm gonna continue to work on the situation the way I have, and I fully expect you to continue working the way you have.
I'm curious: The last time you tried witnessing to an abortion doctor, what happened?
Why do you get the full wrath of Christian anti-abortion protestors? Because you make Christians look like hateful, spiteful, just-out-of-the-asylum screaming meemees?
I don't know, Jeff. As I said before, I'm not after people to like me. I don't care whether they like me or not. What I worry about is whether people see Christ in me or not, and whether your actions are ruining my witness and my chance to lead someone to Christ.
You ever watched yourself and/or any other "screamers" on TV, after being filmed while protesting, and placed yourself in the shoes of an atheist or seeker of God? Seeing those people, would you honestly go to someone like that to find out more about Christ?
Jeff, I don't have any intention of changing your mind. I know you, and how long you've been at this. I'm gonna continue to work on the situation the way I have, and I fully expect you to continue working the way you have.
I'm curious: The last time you tried witnessing to an abortion doctor, what happened?
fromtheright
<img src =/2844.JPG>
quote:
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Originally posted by fromtheright:
Is it nice, respectable Christians who bomb abortion clinics or you fanatics?
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No, it just sounds like a nice fanatical thing to do. Or are you disavowing some of your fellow fanatics? Are some things even too fanatic for you fanatics? I just know that nice, respectable Christians don't go bombing clinics.
Do you believe that there is an acceptable level of vandalism? If not, then I fully respect your activities (and believe it is fully protected by the Constitution); if so, then you may not be a Christian wimp, but you are supporting Christian thugs.
[ June 16, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: fromtheright ]
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Originally posted by fromtheright:
Is it nice, respectable Christians who bomb abortion clinics or you fanatics?
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Have you?Originally posted by Jefferson:
Are you accusing me of bombing an abortion clinic?
No, it just sounds like a nice fanatical thing to do. Or are you disavowing some of your fellow fanatics? Are some things even too fanatic for you fanatics? I just know that nice, respectable Christians don't go bombing clinics.
Do you believe that there is an acceptable level of vandalism? If not, then I fully respect your activities (and believe it is fully protected by the Constitution); if so, then you may not be a Christian wimp, but you are supporting Christian thugs.
[ June 16, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: fromtheright ]
Don:
You didn't answer my question. Do you think Jack Hyles was "unloving" because he raised His voice? Did Hyles "ruin your witness and your chance to lead someone to Christ?" Did Hyles "completely turn off any chance of winning anyone to a complete knowledge of the saving grace of Christ" because he raised his voice like Enyart did? Why is it okay for Hyles, but not okay for Enyart?
By the way do you think Jesus raised his voice just a little bit in Matthew 21:12,13?
"And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, It is written, 'My house shall be called the house of prayer'; but you have made it a den of thieves."
[ June 17, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
You didn't answer my question. Do you think Jack Hyles was "unloving" because he raised His voice? Did Hyles "ruin your witness and your chance to lead someone to Christ?" Did Hyles "completely turn off any chance of winning anyone to a complete knowledge of the saving grace of Christ" because he raised his voice like Enyart did? Why is it okay for Hyles, but not okay for Enyart?
By the way do you think Jesus raised his voice just a little bit in Matthew 21:12,13?
"And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, It is written, 'My house shall be called the house of prayer'; but you have made it a den of thieves."
[ June 17, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Jefferson ]
Nope.
Ya know, I never heard or saw Hyles preach. I'm familiar with one or two people who have been trained in the "Hyles-style"; if they truly exemplify the way that Hyles preached, then I'd have to say your question is invalid.
I'll have to see if I can find an audio file somewhere on the web and see if I can locate ol' Jack screaming at someone like Enyart screamed at that girl....
(because, Jeffy, as you well know, there's a difference between "raising your voice" and screaming. You know why Bobby E. loses credibility when he screams? Because any three year old can scream....)
And incidentally, knowing full well that I'm gonna tick off a lot of people by saying this, I don't prescribe to Hyles' "easy believism" preaching. Hope you don't, either.
[ June 24, 2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
Ya know, I never heard or saw Hyles preach. I'm familiar with one or two people who have been trained in the "Hyles-style"; if they truly exemplify the way that Hyles preached, then I'd have to say your question is invalid.
I'll have to see if I can find an audio file somewhere on the web and see if I can locate ol' Jack screaming at someone like Enyart screamed at that girl....
(because, Jeffy, as you well know, there's a difference between "raising your voice" and screaming. You know why Bobby E. loses credibility when he screams? Because any three year old can scream....)
And incidentally, knowing full well that I'm gonna tick off a lot of people by saying this, I don't prescribe to Hyles' "easy believism" preaching. Hope you don't, either.
[ June 24, 2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
Try his sermon entitled "Mini-skirts in light of the Bible" found at http://www.baptist-city.com/classic_hyles.htm
Oh, puh-leeze.
You honestly don't see the difference?
That would make around the third Hyles sermon I've listened to over the last couple of days, and they're all pretty much the same.
Differences between a Hyles sermon and Enyart's conversation with that young lady:
Hyles was preaching; Enyart was engaging in debate/conversation.
Hyles raised his voice to emphasize points, and immediately lowered his voice when going on to the next point; Enyart screamed because he was mad.
As I said before, there is a difference between raising your voice and screaming, especially engaging in screaming matches.
The #1 way you can tell the difference? Listen to Mr. Enyart's conversation with the young lady again, starting around the 50 minute mark, and wait for these words: "SHUT UP." "LISTEN TO ME."
You honestly don't see the difference?
That would make around the third Hyles sermon I've listened to over the last couple of days, and they're all pretty much the same.
Differences between a Hyles sermon and Enyart's conversation with that young lady:
Hyles was preaching; Enyart was engaging in debate/conversation.
Hyles raised his voice to emphasize points, and immediately lowered his voice when going on to the next point; Enyart screamed because he was mad.
As I said before, there is a difference between raising your voice and screaming, especially engaging in screaming matches.
The #1 way you can tell the difference? Listen to Mr. Enyart's conversation with the young lady again, starting around the 50 minute mark, and wait for these words: "SHUT UP." "LISTEN TO ME."
Administrator2
New Member
It seems to be time to close this thread, seeing the way it is going. You two are encouraged to continue your discussion in private emails. This thread will be locked in about six hours.
Don:
Again, you never answered another one of my questions:
Do you think Jesus raised his voice just a little bit in Matthew 21:12,13?
"And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, It is written, 'My house shall be called the house of prayer'; but you have made it a den of thieves."
Again, you never answered another one of my questions:
Do you think Jesus raised his voice just a little bit in Matthew 21:12,13?
"And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, It is written, 'My house shall be called the house of prayer'; but you have made it a den of thieves."
Jefferson, can you prove that He did "raise His voice"? Further, can you prove that He screamed at them?
Isn't the verse phrased as "And He said to them," as opposed to "And He screamed at them" or "And He shouted at them"?
Isn't the Greek word here "lego," meaning "to say, to speak; affirm, teach, exhort, point out, speak out"?
As opposed to the Greek word "epiphoneo," meaning "to call out, to shout" (Acts 12:22)? Or "keleuma," meaning "to order, command, spec. a stimulating cry" (1 Thessalonians 4:16)?
And especially considering the two times that Jesus is explicitly recorded as raising His voice? (The crucifixion--Matt 27:46,50; Mark 15:34, 37; Luke 23:46) and the resurrection of Lazarus? (John 11:43)
Seeing as you can't prove that He did yell and/or scream in the passage you provided, and I can't prove that He didn't, doesn't your point fall into...no point?
My position has been that your "screaming matches" are biblically unfounded, and don't speak well as a witness for Christ. You've subtlely attempted to twist that to simply "raising the voice," something to which I have so far refused to allow myself to be taken off course for.
As the administrator indicated, we could continue this through private message, or e-mail...but I don't think either of us are interested in that, and I no longer have any interest in pursuing this further.
[ June 26, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
Isn't the verse phrased as "And He said to them," as opposed to "And He screamed at them" or "And He shouted at them"?
Isn't the Greek word here "lego," meaning "to say, to speak; affirm, teach, exhort, point out, speak out"?
As opposed to the Greek word "epiphoneo," meaning "to call out, to shout" (Acts 12:22)? Or "keleuma," meaning "to order, command, spec. a stimulating cry" (1 Thessalonians 4:16)?
And especially considering the two times that Jesus is explicitly recorded as raising His voice? (The crucifixion--Matt 27:46,50; Mark 15:34, 37; Luke 23:46) and the resurrection of Lazarus? (John 11:43)
Seeing as you can't prove that He did yell and/or scream in the passage you provided, and I can't prove that He didn't, doesn't your point fall into...no point?
My position has been that your "screaming matches" are biblically unfounded, and don't speak well as a witness for Christ. You've subtlely attempted to twist that to simply "raising the voice," something to which I have so far refused to allow myself to be taken off course for.
As the administrator indicated, we could continue this through private message, or e-mail...but I don't think either of us are interested in that, and I no longer have any interest in pursuing this further.
[ June 26, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
What speaks poorly as a witness for Christ is Christians who communicate the falsehood that all sins are equal. I don't yell at anyone who is an unrepentant shoe thief. But I do yell at unrepentant murderers.Originally posted by Don:
My position has been that your "screaming matches" are biblically unfounded, and don't speak well as a witness for Christ.