Attn: All Dispensationals

[R. Charles Blair]

Dear friend and brother ituttut - so many points I hardly know where to begin - also "past my bedtiime" after a day in Louisville and on the road (that's 5 hours east of here!). But the essential difference is that you have more than one way of salvation and I have only one for all ages. I cannot believe that baptism ever saved, or that law ever saved; surely if Romans 4 and Galatians 3 teach anything, it is that Abraham was saved in exactly the same way in which we are saved today. Yes, I preach "repentance toward God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ," just as Paul did (Acts 20:21). The Greek (and even the
English carefully read) of Acts 2:38 does not place remission of sins in baptism, but in the NAME OF JESUS. The Gr. preposition is "in dependence upon" the Name. This is exactly the same message preached to a Gentile, Acts 10:43, by the same speaker, with no mention of baptism until after evident repentance and faith. Since Paul calls those who preach any other gospel "accursed," and insists that any other "gospel" is "not another," I am convinced that in all its forms it is one eternal gospel, always BY grace THROUGH faith based on the shed blood of Christ, whether looking forward dimly, or back (still without full understanding!) Yes, I am familiar with the interpretation that this only refers to "this age," but the choice of adjectives ("another of a different kind," "not another of the same kind," in Engl. paraphrase) says to me that any other thing called a "gospel" is not able to save in any age.

One other quick note before "I lay me down to sleep" - Mk. 1:14-15 does not say "repent ye sheep of mine" in any translation I've ever read. It is simply repentance and faith exactly as Acts 20:21. Quite clearly, with this significant difference at base, while we are both saved in the same way and therefore brothers, all the other details are very secondary to this one point, which will color any other subject.

By the way, for JackRUS quickly, I meant "post-mil" about W. Ramsey; did not say that was my view, just that he had some interesting things to say. I'm probably closer to "a-," but not satisfied with any of the standard theories.

Best to all - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by R. Charles Blair:
Dear friend and brother ituttut - so many points I hardly know where to begin - also "past my bedtiime" after a day in Louisville and on the road (that's 5 hours east of here!). But the essential difference is that you have more than one way of salvation and I have only one for all ages. I cannot believe that baptism ever saved, or that law ever saved; surely if Romans 4 and Galatians 3 teach anything, it is that Abraham was saved in exactly the same way in which we are saved today.

Thanks for you reply Charles, and I also do not believe baptism itself saved anyone, it is only this was what God added for His people when He gave to John the Baptist His gospel of the “kingdom is at hand”. This was something New required by God of His people. Doesn’t Jesus tell us this gospel is different than before John? Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” “Presseth into? Perhaps like coming through an “eye of a needle”. Is this the Good News Gospel of the “grace commission” into the Body of Christ?

John preaches this New Gospel, then Jesus preaches it, then His Apostles, and on……until!

It is difficult for me to grasp how I a Gentile heathen can be included in a covenant with God when he didn’t ask me, and in fact excluded the whole world from His covenant with only the Nation He created for Himself. There is no way I can be saved as they were. In their salvation He required certain things of them. By faith they did the necessary things. God says in Exodus 19:5-8, such words as “If ye will obey”…”keep my covenant”…”ye will be special to Me above All people”…”all the earth is mine”…”ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation”. Verse 8 the whole nation agreed, and Moses relayed the message to the Lord.

What about “them bones, them dry bones” referenced in Ezekiel 37:1-14? Eleven and twelve says the whole house of Israel are those bones He will raise them up, and they are His people, and He will bring them into the land of Israel in that day. God in that day and time has no words of encouragement for me. But scripture tells me we heathen are not forgotten in this dispensation. Don’t we have something better being in The Body of Christ? Jesus Christ has an inheritance coming and we today are it. We are destined for the heavenlies for we come through His blood – Ephesians 1:3-7.

Yes, I preach "repentance toward God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ," just as Paul did (Acts 20:21).

Amen!

The Greek (and even the
English carefully read) of Acts 2:38 does not place remission of sins in baptism, but in the NAME OF JESUS. The Gr. preposition is "in dependence upon" the Name.

And I fully agree with you. But can we deny this is what Jesus says to His Apostles that have covenant with Him in the “great commission”. Jesus tells in a parable they (the house of Israel) would have a year to accept their King. In Acts 2, even though they invoke the name of Jesus Christ, under covenant they must still live and come to Christ By Faith. These still held to the Sabbath, the Circumcision, the blood Sacrifices, The Works as pointed out by James. These are still Jews, and the only way they can come (until after Damascus Road) is [by] faith.

What a shock this must have been to the Jew. They had never associated with the heathen, preaching the “kingdom of heaven was at hand” gospel, following the example set by Jesus. Jesus’ instruction’s to His earthly Apostles is for His people to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Had Israel accepted Messiah, the Gentile would then be preached to. Whatever they do, or whatever they believe, God’s Word says they Must be Baptized in His name to receive the Holy Ghost. This is not the Christian gospel.

This is exactly the same message preached to a Gentile, Acts 10:43, by the same speaker, with no mention of baptism until after evident repentance and faith.

But we must take in to account Acts 9 where we find some of what God had hidden from the beginning. The Gentile will now be preached to with a new gospel, and as Peter says in Acts 15:11, ”.. we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

You will notice this is not the usual sermon Peter preached. Acts 10:43-44, ”To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”God put word’s into Peter’s mouth, and He stopped Peter’s tongue before Peter could add “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Peter had never before preached to a Gentile, but Peter being obedient to God did what God told Him to. Peter as far as we know never again preached to a Gentile for he was not called to do so, with the Christian gospel. Galatians 2:7-9 reveals the Apostolic church of the circumcised in Jerusalem informed the Christian church of Antioch, that they of the Pentecostal should preach the gospel of the circumcision to the circumcised, and Paul and Barnabas should preach to the uncircumcised. This is the reason Paul had gone to Jerusalem. He didn’t want That Other Gospel preached to His Gentiles, and all shook hands.

Since Paul calls those who preach any other gospel "accursed," and insists that any other "gospel" is "not another," I am convinced that in all its forms it is one eternal gospel, always BY grace THROUGH faith based on the shed blood of Christ, whether looking forward dimly, or back (still without full understanding!) Yes, I am familiar with the interpretation that this only refers to "this age," but the choice of adjectives ("another of a different kind," "not another of the same kind," in Engl. paraphrase) says to me that any other thing called a "gospel" is not able to save in any age.

Paul refers to the gospel he was given by Christ to preach to the Gentile. A Gentile is not to be preached any gospel other than what Christ told Him to preach.

I cannot locate in the Word of God anyone coming “through” until after Damascus Road, and it must be for a reason. We find that reason in Acts 9:15, ” But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel. Nowhere can we find the Gentile placed before Israel. In our wildest dreams we Gentiles could never hope for such as this Grace of God that comes to us Through our Lord Jesus Christ, and in their worst nightmare would a Jew have ever dared dreamed such an unholy thing. But Paul believed God, and so did the Apostles – Romans 16:25, ”Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”

One other quick note before "I lay me down to sleep" - Mk. 1:14-15 does not say "repent ye sheep of mine" in any translation I've ever read. It is simply repentance and faith exactly as Acts 20:21. Quite clearly, with this significant difference at base, while we are both saved in the same way and therefore brothers, all the other details are very secondary to this one point, which will color any other subject. Charles - Ro. 8:28

But what gospel did Christ preach while on the earth?

Brother in Christ, agreed we all today are saved in the same way, Peter agreeing with us, and also John, for Jesus had John to write his Epistles some 30 years after the death of Paul. Jesus had spoke many things not before reported, and had not been understood. I believe the writings of Peter, and John are for the most part of great benefit to the Jew today, for the Jew responds much better to what Jesus said while on earth. Christian faith, ituttut. Galatians 1:11-12

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Dear friend and brother - While I "digest" your last letter, one simple question: where does the book of Hebrews fit in your approach? Is it for our age? To me, this book clearly teaches that "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin" (10:4) (10-4 on that?), and therefore He (Jesus) came into the world as the Lamb slain from the foundation, finished the work His Father gave Him to do, and sat down at the right hand of the Father until He returns. That is, "Salvation is one, Old Testament and New, Gentile and Jew." Is that not the teaching of Heb. 4:2 - the same "gospel was preached to us as well as to them . . . ."? That is, to Old Testament saints and New Testament saints, one everlasting gospel, always the same?
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, . . . ., prophesying of the Messiah Who would be Abraham's seed? (Gal. 3:8) As to coming "through," Heb. 11:33 & 39 both use
"dia" (through) with reference to OT saints. I'll try to absorb your post and respond ASAP; in the meantime, just something to "chew on" for a while.

Best in Him - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by R. Charles Blair:
Dear friend and brother - While I "digest" your last letter, one simple question: where does the book of Hebrews fit in your approach? Is it for our age? To me, this book clearly teaches that "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin" (10:4) (10-4 on that?), and therefore He (Jesus) came into the world as the Lamb slain from the foundation, finished the work His Father gave Him to do, and sat down at the right hand of the Father until He returns.

I differ in no way with you. But I do see God had hidden something, and I believe it to be this dispensation of Grace Through Faith. This is what Christianity is all about. The Book to the Hebrews is written specifically to the Hebrew today in this dispensation, for the purpose that God always had. God made a “covenant”, an eternal one, with Himself, before the world began. He made this “eternal covenant” stipulating that through the spilled blood of Christ Jesus we would have “eternal life.

So yes, from the beginning all would be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, but none could come “Through” His blood until it was shed. Those of Old were they that came By Way of the Blood that had not been shed, by the covering blood of animals. Those sins were hid, but not forgiven until after Christ shed His Blood. Those that believed were held by faith of Jesus Christ, as we all are.

Something did happen at Damascus Road. God opened that secret to Saul/Paul, for both Gentile and Jew. Sins were only hidden, not forgiven. All this was “hidden” in God. I believe by Paul (Christ revealed to Him) came Christianity and the knowledge of this fact, plus we today are in the Body of Christ. We are His inheritance. Scripture teaches the Hebrew will inherit the kingdom on earth. I have Christ who has heaven and earth. The Apostles have their own kingdom that Jesus Christ gave to them, and they will judge the Nation, Luke 22:29-30,

That is, "Salvation is one, Old Testament and New, Gentile and Jew." Is that not the teaching of Heb. 4:2 - the same "gospel was preached to us as well as to them . . . ."? That is, to Old Testament saints and New Testament saints, one everlasting gospel, always the same?

Hebrews 4:2, ” For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” We differ on this one, for I see for those spoken of Old had the “blood covenant” (circumcision) with God, the Law, and they didn’t mix faith in God with it. If by faith they believe, this watered down mixture would hold them until the real thing comes. Those that believed By faith, with the “covenant of blood”, were kept under the law, promised by faith of Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:22-23. Today, we are kept by His blood, through His faith. Sanctified, and Justified.

In verses 24-29 we see all are of the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise - Genesis 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:7-9; 14. So Abraham being the father of us all, today we are children of God By faith in Christ Jesus - Sanctified, and Justified Through Christ Jesus.

"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, . . . ., prophesying of the Messiah Who would be Abraham's seed? (Gal. 3:8) As to coming "through," Heb. 11:33 & 39 both use
"dia" (through) with reference to OT saints. I'll try to absorb your post and respond ASAP; in the meantime, just something to "chew on" for a while.

Best in Him - Charles - Ro. 8:28

If what you say is so then what Paul meant to say in Romans 3:30 was, ” Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision [/b[by[/b] faith, and uncircumcision by faith.” Or in his confusion ” Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision through faith, and uncircumcision through faith.” I personally believe it should be, by and through, to clear contradictions over this matter. Some believe Paul should have “ek’d" when he “dia’d”. In 3:8 we see the word “ek” is used, and in 3:30 “ek” = by for the circumcision, and “dia” = through (as in diameter) for the uncircumcision.

Hebrews 11:33, “[/I]Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.”[/I] Through faith in God their Father, Malachi 2:9, they did these things, and obtained promises. But I do not see “through faith” of Jesus Christ they believed they were saved. They did not know Him. In their belief they spoke to and of the Father. The knowledge of the “Son of God”, Jesus Christ was “hidden” from them. They didn’t know His name, by whom they must come. It is necessary they be Justified By faith as pointed out in Romans 3:30, so they lived and died By faith, being justified.

Verse 39 and 40, ”And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” Through faith they could not receive the promise of the Kingdom, and to date it still has not happened. So again they lived and died By faith. Today our promise through the faith of Christ, is to be in Him, but their promise of the kingdom is yet to come.

If we endeavor to “force” the belief it was possible for those before to come “through” faith of Jesus Christ in obeying His Father, what do we do with Romans 3:30?

It is God that sanctifies (sets us apart), and then He must justify. Christ Jesus revealed to Paul that By faith the circumcised is justified, and Through faith the uncircumcised is justified. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12. .

 

[Plain Old Bill]

First I think I should compliment the spirit of this thread by everybody involved.This is truly one of the more civil discussions I have seen on the board by what could be a highly contentious set of subjects D vs C. .I read the whole article and the entire thread and found it quite interesting. I have always thought that studying the dispensations as well as the covenants was useful in Biblical interpretation and have thought it silly that anybody would think that one side or view would be an answer to all.My experience has followed that of Bapmom and Humblesmith so far as what I have heard taught in church.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

POB - Thanks for the good word there. Believers should be able to be civil with one another!

Friend and Brother Ituttut - So many invididual points, yet it boils down to one simple idea: you have several "gospels" and I see one "everlasting
gospel" for all ages, expressed more fully after the death/burial/resurrection actually took place.

A few specifics from your earlier posts; you have read the same passages of Scripture I have, and you obviously are aware of any Scripture I would cite. But on an earlier post re Lk. 16:16 you wrote, "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the kingdom . . . .", and then wrote:
"We see the gospel is changed." "Law & prophets" were never "gospel." We see the old covenant coming to an end to make way for the new, as is stated in Hebrews 8:7-13 and II Cor. 3:7-11.

In Acts 15:9, Peter is quite clear: There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew, "purifying their hearts by faith" (no written preposition, but Locative Case, not Genitive). And v. 11 is equally clear; please endure my translation. BUT
through (dia) the grace of the Lord Jesus we believe to be saved in the same manner as they.
And this is Peter, a Jew, speaking of Jew and Gentile believing and being saved in the same manner. Yes, it is after the Damascus Road experience, and Cornelius; but James immediately concurs (no conflict between their messages) by quoting Amos as the justification for this view!

In the Romans 3 passage; yes, v. 30 does use "ek" (out of) referring to Jews, "dia" for Gentiles; but reading on down, is it not clear that both Abraham and David were just as justified as Paul or us? And not by works, law, animal sacrifice, but "by grace through faith." 4:12 states plainly
that is the father not only of the circumcision, but of "those who walk in the steps of the faith which A. our father had while still uncircumcised." Isn't that one way of salvation?

And back to 3:22: "Even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe; for there is no difference."

In Acts 13, Paul, speaking to Jews in the presence
of Gentiles, quotes Isa. 49:6 to remind the Jews that God always intended to save Gentiles.

In your discussion of the Gadarene demoniac, you do believe (by your post) that he was a "heathen" and yet is he not saved? When we put the gospels together, we find Jesus returning to Decapolis (Mark 7:31-8:1) and being received by great crowds. Evidently "Legion" had done his mission work well! You are on target in saying he could not go with Jesus because of Jewish feelings against Gentiles, but it was more important for him to be a home missionary! It is difficult to believe that no Gentiles heard the message of Jesus in these heavily Gentile areas, especially
"Galilee of the Gentiles" where the folks in His home town wanted to stone him, throw Him off the cliff, and His response was to point out the work of Elijah with Gentiles! What was their point of opposition? Evidently that Jesus was speaking to and including non-Jews!

One last "quickie" - do you really believe that Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 have nothing to do with us? Is not Jesus the "Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world" slain from the foundation? "His own" probably has more to do with "His chosen" than with "the seed of Abraham."

Well, it's tired and I'm late; this is, as noted by POB above, a very pleasant discussion, for which I'm grateful. If we wind up "agreeing to disagree," we'll visit in glory and forget the issues, I believe. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill and RCBlair
First I think I should compliment the spirit of this thread by everybody involved.This is truly one of the more civil discussions I have seen on the board by what could be a highly contentious set of subjects D vs C. .I read the whole article and the entire thread and found it quite interesting. I have always thought that studying the dispensations as well as the covenants was useful in Biblical interpretation and have thought it silly that anybody would think that one side or view would be an answer to all.My experience has followed that of Bapmom and Humblesmith so far as what I have heard taught in church.

Appreciate the kind words (doubt you have read all of my posts) POBill. When someone smiles at me, I smile back. Some do not return the smile. There are “dispensationalists”, and there are “dispensationalists”. There are “faiths”, and there are “faiths” – (ASV)Romans 1:17, ”For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.” I believe we in this dispensation, including B&H and all Christians live by “faith” in our Savior Father God, through faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

To RCB: We hit the road in the morning to see some shut-ins. Tuesday evening before I can take a good look at your last. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Actually I did read all of your posts on this thread.You all have done well.Although there were'nt smiles everywhere I did'nt see the hostilility that is common to some of these discussions.While I do see dispensations and covenants in the Bible I don't make a theology out of them.I see them as useful tools for Biblical interpretation and no more.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by R. Charles Blair:
POB - Thanks for the good word there. Believers should be able to be civil with one another!

Friend and Brother Ituttut - So many invididual points, yet it boils down to one simple idea: you have several "gospels" and I see one "everlasting
gospel" for all ages, expressed more fully after the death/burial/resurrection actually took place.

In scripture I see differently. I see God as having One purpose. Not only for we of the “flesh”, but also the Angels.

I see in His dispensation’s for us are gospels to bring about His purpose. However as you say there is “one everlasting gospel” as we find in Revelation 14:6, and in 7 we see that it is “fear God and give Him glory. In Abraham all nations will be blessed for he “feared” God. Proverbs 1-6 tells us the “fear” of God is the beginning of knowledge.

For me I see two groups of people that “fear” God. The gospel to the covenant people of God, those of the “circumcision”, and this is not my gospel from Christ Jesus. Scripture informs the circumcision gospel of the covenant is faith based with works. Can we read the Old Testament, and in the New Testament also that this was so. What says James? Paul helps enlighten us in Galatians 2 as he speaks to the circumcised.

I believe the “everlasting” gospel started with the Angels, but our gospel could not be as theirs. Not until we are gone when that which was preached at first is preached at the last – Revelation 14:6-7, ”And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.”

A few specifics from your earlier posts; you have read the same passages of Scripture I have, and you obviously are aware of any Scripture I would cite. But on an earlier post re Lk. 16:16 you wrote, "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the kingdom . . . .", and then wrote:
"We see the gospel is changed." "Law & prophets" were never "gospel." We see the old covenant coming to an end to make way for the new, as is stated in Hebrews 8:7-13 and II Cor. 3:7-11.

So then are you agreeing that Paul is the purveyor of the “good news” gospel, and it was the only one ever preached by man?


In Acts 15:9, Peter is quite clear: There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew, "purifying their hearts by faith" (no written preposition, but Locative Case, not Genitive). And v. 11 is equally clear; please endure my translation. BUT
through (dia) the grace of the Lord Jesus we believe to be saved in the same manner as they.
And this is Peter, a Jew, speaking of Jew and Gentile believing and being saved in the same manner. Yes, it is after the Damascus Road experience, and Cornelius; but James immediately concurs (no conflict between their messages) by quoting Amos as the justification for this view!

In the Romans 3 passage; yes, v. 30 does use "ek" (out of) referring to Jews, "dia" for Gentiles; but reading on down, is it not clear that both Abraham and David were just as justified as Paul or us? And not by works, law, animal sacrifice, but "by grace through faith." 4:12 states plainly
that is the father not only of the circumcision, but of "those who walk in the steps of the faith which A. our father had while still uncircumcised." Isn't that one way of salvation?

And back to 3:22: "Even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe; for there is no difference."

Yes agree, for today there is no difference, but there was before, for the Jew was justified By faith, and the Gentile is justified Through faith. Before the Gentile came through the Jew to the Father, but today we come through the faith of Christ.

In Acts 13, Paul, speaking to Jews in the presence
of Gentiles, quotes Isa. 49:6 to remind the Jews that God always intended to save Gentiles.

But how? Not as the Jew. Scripture never hinted at the fact that the Jew would be able to now come as the Gentiles. The nation would never believe it, and they still don’t, but God will put into their hearts and save all Israel. Of all Israel, only a small percentage is allowed to see the light by which Israel was to preach to the world. The Gentile’s would hear and carry the “light” to the whole world, of the “grace commission”.”

In your discussion of the Gadarene demoniac, you do believe (by your post) that he was a "heathen" and yet is he not saved? When we put the gospels together, we find Jesus returning to Decapolis (Mark 7:31-8:1) and being received by great crowds. Evidently "Legion" had done his mission work well! You are on target in saying he could not go with Jesus because of Jewish feelings against Gentiles, but it was more important for him to be a home missionary! It is difficult to believe that no Gentiles heard the message of Jesus in these heavily Gentile areas, especially
"Galilee of the Gentiles" where the folks in His home town wanted to stone him, throw Him off the cliff, and His response was to point out the work of Elijah with Gentiles! What was their point of opposition? Evidently that Jesus was speaking to and including non-Jews!

But why does Jesus say He came only for His own? Jesus had compassion on some Gentiles, but that was not His mission. In His first “great commission” the message was to not go into the way of Samaritans, or Gentiles with the gospel of “the kingdom is at hand”. If any heard that gospel of the “kingdom is at hand”, and wished to become proselytes, they could do so, but we know Jesus and the Apostles did not preach to the heathen offering them the kingdom, other than to be the slaves to the Jew for eternity. Jesus tells us He didn’t preach to them; Peter and James , as well as the other Apostles, and those in Jerusalem give evidence they would not, and did not carry the message of the “kingdom is at hand” to the heathen. They also shook hands with Paul and Barnabas that they had no intention to ever do so, as least while the Temple stood.

One last "quickie" - do you really believe that Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 have nothing to do with us? Is not Jesus the "Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world" slain from the foundation? "His own" probably has more to do with "His chosen" than with "the seed of Abraham."

Yes I believe it does not. We are in heaven during this time. The book is written to His people, and for the heathen that wish to go marching into the kingdom as they “catch hold of the skirt of the Jew”. I believe for eternity the Gentile will seek after, and serve the Jew. – Zechariah 8:23. We are in Christ Jesus, and worship and serve Him.

Well, it's tired and I'm late; this is, as noted by POB above, a very pleasant discussion, for which I'm grateful. If we wind up "agreeing to disagree," we'll visit in glory and forget the issues, I believe. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

I also enjoy/ed? I see you love His Word as do I. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

 

[R. Charles Blair]

My dear friend and brother: If you really feel that Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 have nothing to do with us, just because of the book and portion of that book where they are found, then we had best
"agree to disagree" in Christian friendship, and let me leave you with this benediction:

"Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today, and for ever. . . . Now the God of peace, Who brought again from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing todo His will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to Whom the glory for ever and ever. . . . Grace be with you all. Amen." (Heb. 13:8, 20-21, 25)