August 6, 1945 - No Regrets

Many times I have seen the argument made here and elsewhere that Sherman's war on the south was evil. Some say it was a necessary evil and others say war against civilians is never acceptable. It is odd to me that some of the same people who would say war on civilians is never justified will, in the case of Hiroshima or even the fire bombings of other cities, argue the opposite.

Argue that it was necessary but do not argue that it was a good thing. Pragmatism ("if the action works or was necessary then it was good") is a very common American philosophy but I don't think it has much support in scripture. Our first loyalty is to the God who loves Japanese people as much as he loves Americans.

 

Actually it would not just a matter of time. You have to understand the culture of the Japenese people, they would have never surrenedered as long as they continued to have an Emperor. They needed to surrender unconditionally, somthing they were unwilling to do until we nuked them.

It was neccessary.

 

I DO understand them, I served there for two years. Whether they would want to surrender or not, is a debatable point. There were already elements in the Empire, including the Emperor himself, who realized that the war was over, that it was a matter of time. The fact remains that they had no offensive capabilities left. You can't fight a war without oil...

 

Russia was gearing up to invade Japan. The Japanese had already been attacked by Russia on the northern outposts of the empire . Their obvious intent was to sweep straight into Japan and get a piece of her just as they did Germany.

The Japanese had earlier asked Russia to enter the fray on their side, but Stalin knew that Japan was doomed so he ignored the request & instead declared war on Japan.

The emperor and many of the higher-ups in the government knew full well what Stalin had in mind AND with the evidence of the massive destructive power that the USA "must have had", the only option was immediate surrender before Russia could establish any presumption of a foothold on the island nation.

Absent the A-bombs, the war would have dragged on long enough for Russia to become a major player in the terms of surrender/annihliation; which would not have been the best interest of Japan OR the US

So, as stated many posts ago, it was a shame that it HAD to be dropped, but not a shame that it WAS dropped---BIG DIFFERENCE!

True enough, but the Japanese were virtually devoid of any offensive action after Midway, but they were still EXTREMELY dedicated to DEFENSE. (Corregador, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Guam, etc, etc)

So, even with limited capabilities on the home island, it would have been a massacre of human lives that, in all likelihood, would have far surpassed the carnage of the 2 bombs.

 

What do you folks think of the modern day "limited" wars that stress so strongly the need not to harm any civillians?

I wonder if these do not, in the long run, cost us many more lives.

 

The New-Age-Liberals have forgotten:

A. Japan started the war with us, using a sneak attack to do it. Despite their denial, despite their attempt for it not to have happened until they'd actually declared war upon us, it DID happen; it WAS a sneak attack.

B. At the time, China was a friend of the USA. The whole disagreement between Japan and the USA began over their aggression against China.

C. Japan had given its word to Hitler to go to war with us.

D. The brutality of the Japanese against POWs and the peoples of the lands they'd conquered is well-documented. This occurred long before food shortages hit conquered and conqueror alike. THEY HAD NO EXCUSE.

E. Whatever they got, they DESERVED it....they brought it upon themselves. They sowed a wind & reaped a whirlwind.

Don't get me wrong...I have never held any Japanese of my lifetime as an enemy, but in my parents' younger days, they WERE. They started a war with us, and we were perfectly justified in using the means available to us to WIN it. Killing the known enemy in time of war is NOT murder.

Japan lost "only" some 1.3 million military people killed in the war outta some 9 million under arms. There were still large, well-armed, well-fed forces of high morale in China and in Japan itself. Despite her economic collapse, they still had plenty of weapons and ammo, and woulda fought to the very last person had not the emperor ordered the surrender, long as they believed he'd be removed if they were occupied. Besides the military, there were some 80 million civilians who woulda fought with whatever was available & we woulda been forced to "conquer a peace" with MUCH-higher casualties in both sides.We forget, their culture is different from ours; they did NOT hold human life as dearly as WE do and they considered it a supremeact of righteousness to die fighting for the emperor, whom they believed was their god on earth.

The fire-bombing of Tokyo early March 1945 killed as many civilians as did each atom bomb. When I was in Tokyo in 1968, some Japanese showed me the Sumida River that flows through Tokyo. It is no small creek; it was prolly a coupla hunderd feet wide from my viewpoint. These Japanese were pre-teens during the war, and they said the river in that area was almost dammed by the bodies of people jumping into it to escape the firestorm which engulfed that part of Tokyo on both sides of the river. They said the dam of corpses eventually broke apart & that most of the bodies were washed to sea. The Japanese had no means nor manpower available to retrieve them, what with the overwhelming flood of injured.

Did those Japanese feel any bitterness toward me, the USN, or the American forces during the war? No. Most of'em to whom I'd spoken accepted their nation's responsibility of starting the Pacific war, and were grateful to MacArthur for being a far-seeing shogun who genuinely worked in the best interests of all the Japanese people, quickly providing the essentials of life for the millions made into street people by the destruction of their homes.

I was very impressed, even moved, by seeing the meetings between Japanese and American military people of the war, especially the pilots. Those elderly men truly showed that the past was over with, and that they could be as good friends as they'd been bitter enemies. Japan's greatest fighter pilot, Saburo Sakai, survived the war, and was able to meet some of his adversaries, including some whom he'd shot down, and ot was just awesome to see those men look upon each other's faces for the first time ever, to see fifty years of antagonism just vanish & to see'em hug each other in true peace & the beginning of a friendship that would last long as they all lived.

Again, we cannot overestimate the importance of MacArthur's rule of Japan during the Occupation. His efforts changed a bitter enemy into a loyal ally. But while we were at war, I believe the end justified the means. What if JAPAN had had the nuke first? What makes anyone think they wouldn'ta used it if they coulda found the means to deliver it?

 

Such a concept works well for the underdog. A diaper-head in Iraq can kill a uniformed US soldier just as dead as can an insurgent in uniform. Our guys stand out in their uniforms while the diaper-head insurgents in mufti do not.

 

Right, Ken!

Anyone seriously think they wouldn'ta used it?

 

Just want to point out that not all people who oppose nuclear weapons are "new age liberals" -- some of us are as conservative as you can get.

In any case, what's done is done. But now we shall reap what we sowed...

Tim

[ August 16, 2005, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: elijah_lives ]

 

Let's not forget all the modern technology that has been a result of the research into atomic energy.

Just because man can, and usually does, misuse technology does not condemn the knowledge that is also used for mankinds good!

I think specifically of all the medical contraptions that use nuclear principles for diagnosis/treatment!

Also, as of today, no nuclear weapons have been used in anger simply because of the knowledge of the extreme destructive power and residual effects. This ignores the terrorists that would use one if they had ready access to one; but then their goal is elimination of any but fellow believers anyway.

The cold war is a good example of restraint because of nuclear weapons.

 

Unfortunately, with N. Korea and Iran in particular, and India/Pakistan, Brazil/Argentina, and other nuclear and near-nuclear powers in general, not forgetting Israel and the terrorists (not to lump them together), it is only a matter of time (Rev 18:8). Cat's out of the bag, and nobody can change that, so we WILL reap what we sowed...

 

Ken

I do pray that we will not reap the day of God's judgement. And I do know that it is coming.

You mentioned a history channel program. To make a claim that a 3d nuclear device was detonated in August of 1945 sounds like an attempt to boost sales.

Not that they were not very close. It is just the first that I have heard of the story. And since the site of the supposed detonation is in N. Korea, I doubt that we will ever know for sure.

 

I wonder how many events of WW2 were directly orchestrated by God? Everything Hitler touched turned to gold until he defeated France...then, his demon left him, and, on his own, Hitler didn't do too well.

Pres. Truman was well aware of the Japanese' reverence for the Emperor, but he unaccountably allowed Byrnes to talk him outta mentioning the Emperor in the Potsdam Declaration. It appears Japan woulda surrendered then & there had the Emperor's office(under a shogun) been guaranteed. That was the USA's intent anyway. And Byrnes himself shoulda known better.

As for the Japanese, an overzealous news reporter, upon hearing that the Japanese Diet was CONSIDERING the Potsdam ultimatum, called his employer and made a critical and unfortunate choice of words. While the Japanese language has other words for 'consider' or 'think over', he chose MOKASETTSU, which CAN mean consider, but usually means 'reject with silent contempt'. Thus, the Allies, who monitored the Japanese news agencies, were led to believe the Diet had rejected the Potsdam Declaration when in truth they had NOT. They were preparing to enquire about the status of the Emperor if they surrendered. However, the delay, coupled with the incorrect news report, proved fatal for Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Truman, a WW1 vet, knew battles & whole wars had been lost because rivers were not crossed, enemy forces not neutralized when the opportunity arose, and weapons weren't used. He didn't hesitate to authorize use of the Bomb.

I'm wondering if this was all happenstance, or had God chosen to punish the Japanese, using our forces? I ask this in the face of my firm belief that He used our forces to stop Saddam from rebuilding the city of Babylon.

 

It is entirely possible that dropping the atomic bombs saved many times the Japanese lives that it took. As well as saving the lives of thousands of Americans.

 

Wow. That's profound. Had never thought of that before.

 

Ken H: I disagree. The surrender barely happened as it was. If it had not been for a U.S. bombing raid knocking out power the emperor would have been kidnapped by the faction that wanted to continue the war.

It's your right to disagree. However, I was in Tokyo late '67, early '68. USN, & I got the straight skinny from some Japanese who were there when the surrender occurred. I was told the Emperor's surrender message was recorded onto a phonograph record since it was unthinkable at that time for him to address the people directly. An attempt was made to ISOLATE(not kidnap) the Emperor, to keep him under 'home confinement' and to find & destroy the record.(There were two copies made, just in case, kept at two different locations. I have no idea if either of'em is still extant.) Also, several squads of diehards set out to kill PM Suzuki and other antiwar cabinet members.(Suzuki fled his home minutes ahead of his would-be assassins, and survived, but some antiwar members and/or family members were shot.)

The Emperor was in the Imperial Library while all this was going on, unknown to his would-be "confiners".

This anti-surrender group was rather small, however, with the vast majority of Japanese still ready to obey the Emperor no matter what. The Emperor's men played the recording right on schedule from a radio substation, with every loudspeaker and radio in Japan tuned in.

A man who'd lived in the USA for awhile told me that as the public PA systems in Tokyo played Hirohito's order to surrender, it sounded like a USA 4th of july for a few minutes. This was the sound of military men shooting themselves. Now while most of the group who tried to stop the surrender message killed themselves, several young officers chose to obey Hirohito and surrender, with several of them becoming instrumental in the rebuilding of Japan.

The men who told me this seemed to be very honest and made no excuses for their part in the war, and I tend to believe honest eyewitnesses more than some secondhand accounts.

Huwever, I didn't meet any nuke survivors while in Tokyo.