Augustine on the Atonement

[JonC]

I am starting this thread because @DaveXR650 insists that any discussion of the Cross has to include Augustine.

Here we can read what Augustine taught in a larger context than snippets that can be misused.

So...here we go


The devil was conquered by his own trophy of victory. The devil jumped for joy, when he seduced the first man and cast him down to death. By seducing the first man, he slew him; by slaying the last man, he lost the first from his snare. The victory of our Lord Jesus Christ came when He rose, and ascended into heaven; then was fulfilled what you have heard when the Apocalypse was being read, ‘The Lion of the tribe of Judah has won the day’ (Revelation 5:5). . . . The devil jumped for joy when Christ died; and by the very death of Christ the devil was overcome: he took, as it were, the bait in the mousetrap. He rejoiced at the death, thinking himself death’s commander. But that which caused his joy dangled the bait before him. The Lord’s cross was the devil’s mousetrap: the bait which caught him was the death of the Lord.” (St. Augustine of Hippo, c. 354-430, Sermon 261)

 

[JonC]

"For then that blood, since it was the blood of Him who had no sin at all, was shed for the remission of our sins, that because the devil deservedly held those whom he had bound by the condition of death as guilty of sin, he might deservedly loose them through Him who was guilty of no sin, and whom he had undeservedly struck with the punishment of death. The strong man was conquered by this justice and bound by this chain, that his vessels might be taken away, which with himself and his angels had been vessels of wrath while with Him they might be turned into vessels of mercy” (Augustine, Confessions).

 

[JonC]

"What is the justice, therefore, by which the devil was conquered? What, unless the justice of Jesus Christ? And how was he conquered? Because, although he found in Him nothing worthy of death, yet he slew Him. And it is certainly just that the debtors, whom he held, should be set free, since they believed in Him whom he slew without any debt. It is in this way, then, that we are said to be justified by his blood” (Augustine, 13:14:18)

 

[kyredneck]

I am starting this thread because @DaveXR650 insists that any discussion of the Cross has to include Augustine.

Here we can read what Augustine taught in a larger context than snippets that can be misused.

So...here we go


The devil was conquered by his own trophy of victory. The devil jumped for joy, when he seduced the first man and cast him down to death. By seducing the first man, he slew him; by slaying the last man, he lost the first from his snare. The victory of our Lord Jesus Christ came when He rose, and ascended into heaven; then was fulfilled what you have heard when the Apocalypse was being read, ‘The Lion of the tribe of Judah has won the day’ (Revelation 5:5). . . . The devil jumped for joy when Christ died; and by the very death of Christ the devil was overcome: he took, as it were, the bait in the mousetrap. He rejoiced at the death, thinking himself death’s commander. But that which caused his joy dangled the bait before him. The Lord’s cross was the devil’s mousetrap: the bait which caught him was the death of the Lord.” (St. Augustine of Hippo, c. 354-430, Sermon 261)

But there's some that insist that the devil was way too smart to fall for it, says the devil even tried to stop the crucifixion.

 

[JonC]

"Further, when we are on the way, and that not a way that lies through space, but through a change of affections, and one which the guilt of our past sins like a hedge of thorns barred against us, what could He, who was willing to lay Himself down as the way by which we should return, do that would be still gracious and more merciful, except to forgive us all our sins, and by being crucified for us to remove the stern decrees that barred the door against our return?" (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine ch 17)

 

[JonC]

But there's some that insist that the devil was way too smart to fall for it, says the devil even tried to stop the crucifixion.

Silly people. Satan is not omniscient.

I am not saying I agree with Augustine, BTW (although I agree with a lot of his views on the cross...he held my position).

I just wanted his writings gathered because a few here would dishonestly post snippets claiming he held penal substitution.

I think the first 3 posts pretty much dispel that idea.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If I had posted posts #1-3, @JonC would have dismissed them as "snippets" and demanded that I write great reams of "context." But let that pass. As I wrote on another thread, Augustine's body of work is vast and he contradicted himself enough for both Roman Catholics and Protestants to claim him as their founder.

I will do no more that re-post what I wrote on the previous thread:

Augustine's body of works is huge, and he certainly contradicted himself a few times. But his statements concerning Penal Substitution are robust.
'But as Christ endured death as man, and for man; so also as Son of God as He was, ever living in his own righteousness, but dying for our offenses, He submitted as man, and for man, to bear the curse which accompanies death. And as He died in the flesh which He took in bearing our punishment, so also, while ever blessed in His own righteousness, He was cursed for our offenses, in the death which He suffered in bearing our offenses [Augustine, Against Faustus, bk. 14, sect 6]

I do not see that this extract either contradicts, or is contradicted by, posts #1-3. I can expand on it a little if anyone wants.

 

[JonC]

I do not see that this extract either contradicts, or is contradicted by, posts #1-3. I can expand on it a little if anyone wants.

No need to expand if you mean explain. The point was to let his words stand for themselves.

I do not think most members really care what Augustine wrote. But you guys wanted to discuss him so I gave you a thread.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No need to expand if you mean explain. The point was to let his words stand for themselves.

I do not think most members really care what Augustine wrote. But you guys wanted to discuss him so I gave you a thread.

In fact, you were the one who introduced Augustine (post #61 on the 'Disagreements about the atonement' thread). You were also the one who kept introducing the church fathers and, of course, the one who started this thread.
Just saying.

 

[JonC]

In fact, you were the one who introduced Augustine (post #61 on the 'Disagreements about the atonement' thread). You were also the one who kept introducing the church fathers and, of course, the one who started this thread.
Just saying.

Here it is. Knock yourself out.

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not think most members really care what Augustine wrote.

You probably are correct in that, I admit. I find him fascinating. I have stumbled through most of his "Confessions" and am interested in these other writings as well. I just can't help but notice that in this quote:

'But as Christ endured death as man, and for man; so also as Son of God as He was, ever living in his own righteousness, but dying for our offenses, He submitted as man, and for man, to bear the curse which accompanies death. And as He died in the flesh which He took in bearing our punishment, so also, while ever blessed in His own righteousness, He was cursed for our offenses, in the death which He suffered in bearing our offenses [Augustine, Against Faustus, bk. 14, sect 6]

You just can't really deny that it shows penal substitution. He seemed even aware we are talking about "our punishment". I see why this needed to be deleted on the other thread. But, since most people don't care what Augustine thought anyway there is no harm in putting it up I guess.

 

[JonC]

You probably are correct in that, I admit. I find him fascinating.

I do as well .

I find his thological works like De civitate Dei (City of God) more interesting than Confessions. But I probably have read Confessions more times.

I do not find his works as interesting as earlier writings, but Augustine marked the end of an era.

One fascinating point, and a famous mistake, was Augustine's view of sin as related to Adam in Romans 5:12. He used a mistranslation (eph ho as in quo). While that misinterpretation is not carried forward in English translation it has influenced theology. It shows how people value tradition.

 

[JonC]

I was watching a video from a historian who gave a good "model" of the early church teachings of the Atonement. He emphasized this is not really a model as frameworks for the Atonement is a Western concept.

But this is the common belief of the Early Church from their writings:


1. Jesus gave His life as a ransom to Satan (“the whole world lies under the power of the evil one”) to free mankind from his power over them.

2. The Father “gave Jesus up” to die a sacrificial death to save us. All our sins were placed upon Him and nailed to the cross. This is a heroic sacrifice rather than a ritualistic style sacrifice to placate an angry God.

3. Forgiveness of our sins, rather than God punishing Christ in our place to satisfy His justice.

4. By His descent into Sheol and His resurrection, Jesus conquered Satan, “binding the strong man and plundering his goods”.

5. Jesus became the Second Adam, undoing our morality and corruption, and enabling us to partake of the divine nature with Him.

6. Christ’s blood cleanses us from sin. Being cleansed from sin allows us to be reconciled to the Father. We receive imputed righteousness at our initial salvation, but what God expects of us after that is real righteousness made possible through the power of Christ.

7. Jesus taught us the ways of the Father, so that we can be fitted to be eternal citizens in His kingdom.