{ Authority} whome should it be Pastor or

Can you give me a N.T. example of such a "right" existing for the church?

 

Why do you assume the congregation is less godly than the pastor? What is the pastor doing if he is not leading the congregation to be more godly? And what is the point of the NT Scriptures that teach the church to be godly? If a church is not godly, then perhaps something other than the way the church is governed is the problem.

The NT is a elder (pastor) led, congregationally governed body. </font>[/QUOTE]I will reword what I said....I see what you are saying and yes,the church should be godly...al believers are called to godliness.

The elders or pastors should be set apart for that particular job,they should desire to do it and meet the qualifications...he is to be more spiritually mature than the average Joe...so more godly,in a sense,yes,but I also see what you are saying Pastor Larry.

 

PTW, how does your church call a pastor? I mean, if the church is not allowed to, how can they do it?

Are you telling me, the church doesn't have the right to remove their Pastor if he does something wrong? That, to me, would sometimes put the most ungodly men as head over the church.

 

The church I left would not allow us to have home
BIble studies either, nor would it alow us to
minister to such places as retirement homes,
hospitals, or any other place on our own. When it
was discovered that I was doing this (I did not
know their rule in this), I was told to promptly stop.
When I asked if they would then start something up
as a church, they were not interested.

In fact, when they kicked me out, I had a retirement
home ministry which was being done under that
church's name, but because I was no longer there,
they just dropped it. They did not tell them; they
just didn't show up or call to explain even later.

Same at that church. We had some real doozies.

 

The pastor(s) should be the leader(s). This rule disqualifies the Hyles style dictators as well as those that acquiesce all of their authority to a deacon board or congregational vote.

A pastor that leads properly will be followed by a congregation of saved people as God allows. A pastor that does not lead properly should be disciplined by the same pattern as another other member or officer, eg. when one claims extrabiblical authority then they have ceased to lead properly.

 

???????

 

Hey folks, Ernie Brazee gave you the Scriputral answer! THE PASTOR. I'm glad PTW isn't in my church!! And I'm not a Hyles fan.

 

KJV:

This Scripture is applicable, except for the slight
addition I made to it in the third and fourth line of
the quotation. Too often I have been around
pastors who thought themselves above right
criticism by the congregation, and this is the way
they acted regarding this passage -- "except for
pastors."

This Scripture is applicable to all, just as it says
in the Bible. When the pastor thinks himself above
correction, it is time to get a new pastor. Too
many have been led astray by pastors who have
placed themselves as dictators and the only
interpreters of the Word.

I thank my God constantly that I attend where
the pastors openly and demonstratively submit to
one another and to the congregation, and where
the members submit to one another and to the
pastors. I would go nowhere again where this is
not the rule of leadership.

 

The scripture quoted from I Peter 5. The "elder" here in this passage IS the pastor. This discussion is scary. You people are talking like you hire and fire a pastor at will. If he doesn't please you just fire him and get another. The pastor is accountable for the flock he pastors. The church should be spiritual enough to call the man God has for them. Put the shoe on the other foot. Are all members as spiritual as they should be? I realize there are bad pastors....but God has a way of taking care of those fellows. We are talking about authority here. I imagine some of the same people that have trouble with pastorial authority have trouble with authority in other areas also. Ernie Brazee had the only right answer to this question so far.

 

8o)
It is likely that everyone here knows this; it is the
part which calls for everyone to submit to one
another which is ignored.

Unfortunately, in some places of worship, the
congregation has no say whatsoever in the person
chosen to pastor the church. I left one of those
after a succession of pastors who should never
have pastored. I also grew up in a pastor's home,
so I have seen it from both sides. Should my
father have pastored? Emphatically, NO! 8o)

Unfortunately, there are times when the church
leadership has closed the doors to the Savior. He
comes, He knocks, but the doors remain closed.
Too often, in such cases, the people do not know
there is another way.

When authority is abused, when Scripture is
distorted, when rules are added to the Bible in a
human effort to improve upon salvation, real
spiritual authority takes a flying leap out the
stained glass windows. At such a time, when the
people's voices are ignored, the empty pews and
collections will speak loud and clear.

That church of which I was a member (the one
with the full parking lot, the one for which cars
parked all around the surrounding blocks as well
as on the city sidewalks so that we could attend,
when there was a good and godly pastor there)
is full of empty pews which are speaking loudly.
Being in their neighborhood a couple weeks ago,
I drove by to see who was left. There were several
empty spots in the parking lot, and I counted 15
cars, some of which may not have been theirs
and some of which were church vehicles.

If all fifteen vehicles belonged to the church
people, my knowledge of those left tells me that
on a Sunday morning, there were approximately
30 in attendance -- this from an attendance of 220
- 230, and consistently growing, when the good
pastor was there.

[ March 30, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

The fastest growing congregations in our state are: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Islam....according to your reasoning I am puzzled.

 

Oh, Shiloh! I meant biblically-literate people!!
8o)

[ March 31, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

If there is a plurality of elders,then they(the elders) would have that responsibility...to remove someone who was not qualified and to find a replacement. If there was not a plurality of elders in place,then the mature godly men of the church could make that decision.

 

The Pastor with the Deacons and members there to back him.

 

If the people were "spiritual" enough to VOTE the pastor in, then why should there be any issues when they want to vote the pastor out?

JER 5:30 "A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land:

JER 5:31 The prophets prophesy lies,
the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it this way.
But what will you do in the end?

 

Qwerty, what do those passages have to do with the church?

 

I feel that the Pastor should be the leader of his church, but also the members of the church have a say in what goes on. At least that is how it is in my church. I like it when the Pastor asks the members if something should or should not happen....