Authority

[Carson Weber]

Hi ChristianCynic,

Do you have anything to contribute to the dialogue?

May God bless you,

Carson

 

[Chemnitz]

Just to be fair, since I asked people why they voted a certain way, I will state how I voted. I voted that Scripture is the final authority, because it is the revealed will of God.

 

[DHK]

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In the Old Testament God spoke through prophets, which words were written down for us and recorded in Scripure.
In the New Testament God has spoken (past tense) through His Son, which words were recorded by the Apostles and written down by the Apostles.
In the Old Testament we have Jesus Christ concealed; in the New, Jesus Christ revealed.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
--Jesus Christ, the Word was revealed to us through the incarnation. The Apostles saw Him They recorded what they saw.

2Pet.2:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
--Here in 2Peter 2:16-13, Peter records one of the most glorious events that he had ever witnessed in his lifetime, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ, when also he saw Moses and Elijah on the Mount with Christ in all His majesty.

2Pet.2:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
--But greater still than the greatest of all his experiences with Christ is the Word of God. He says: "We also have a more sure word of prophecy." He speaks of New Testament revelation. It came not just in old time. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. I believe he is speaking both of Old Testament and New Testament writers here. These are not man's words, not by the will of man he says, but as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Thus our final authority is the Bible. Christ Himself deemed it to be so.
DHK

[ December 09, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Thus our final authority is the Bible. Christ Himself deemed it to be so.
DHK

So then for you the Bible has more authority than Christ?

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi ChristianCynic,

Do you have anything to contribute to the dialogue?

Have you not already read these wonderful contributions I have so generously put forward? Perhaps I need to copyright them.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

So then for you the Bible has more authority than Christ?

Read the verses I quoted, and understand them.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Christ does not continue to speak. He has spoken. It is through His Word that He has spoken, therefore the Word is the final authority, not Christ. This does not diminish from Christ's omnipotence one iota. It is what Christ has set in place for mankind. Christ has deemed for mankind that His Word be the authority for man. He has spoken; not is speaking. The canon of Scripture is closed, not on-going as the Charismatics would like us to believe. We are not to add to His Word.
DHK

 

[Ps104_33]

So then for you the Bible has more authority than Christ?

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
John 1:1-5

Adam, the "WORD" IN John 1:1 is Jesus, not the Bible.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Christ does not continue to speak. He has spoken. It is through His Word that He has spoken, therefore the Word is the final authority, not Christ.

Too bad Scripture doesn't support this.

Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Jesus said that what the Apostles bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.

While the Scriptures themselves tell us the the Scriptures are "useful" and "profitable".

You may continue to make an idol of your Bible if you wish.

I on the other hand will believe Jesus's words over yours any time.

Ron

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Christ does not continue to speak. He has spoken. It is through His Word that He has spoken, therefore the Word is the final authority, not Christ.

Too bad Scripture doesn't support this.

Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Jesus said that what the Apostles bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.

While the Scriptures themselves tell us the the Scriptures are "useful" and "profitable".

You may continue to make an idol of your Bible if you wish.

I on the other hand will believe Jesus's words over yours any time.

Ron</font>[/QUOTE]You continue to take Scripture out of its context. Let's get one thing straight from the beginning. The verse you quoted from Ephesians was addressed to the Ephesian local church. Church (ekklesia) means assembly. It was not talking of the Catholic church, or any denomination for that matter. It was talking of a local assembly of believers, and therefore applicable to every local assembly of believers. The local church is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Bible--wherein the truth is). The local church has been founded on the Word of God. The Word of God is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It is the very foundation of the church. It is the pillar of the local church. Like a pillar holding up the structure of the building the truth of God's Word holds together in unity the believers assembled in the local church. From there they are sent with the gospel to others. They were saved by the gospel message and take the same gospel message to others. They have as a foundation the Word and take the Word to others. They are the pillar and ground of the truth. If you are not in that kind of Church you had better get out; I did not say that kind of organization, but that kind of church, that is that kind of assembly.

Your next verse. Jesus said what would be bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. Find the context of the verse. Look it up. It is speaking again of the local church, and it is speaking of church discipline, excommunication to be specific. The decisions that a local church makes concerning an erring brother, are firm, as if they were made in Heaven. Take the Scriptures seriouosly. "Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."

"You may wish to make the Bible an idol; I'll take the word's of Jesus over yours any time."

It is apparent that you don't even know what the words of Jesus are; let alone what they mean. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15)

Isa.8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Do you have light?
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
Which is why I am so confused as to why anyone would have an issue with accepting the Bible as the final authority for all matters in faith and doctrine.

Not following you here, Adam.

Could you explain?

Ron

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
The local church is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Bible--wherein the truth is).

DHK, this is a perfect example of how it is necessary for you to change and substitute words in Scripture to make it fit your man made preconceived ideas.

Now we are told that "church" really means the Bible.

Just like "water" means Scripture, according to you.

Sola scriptura at it's best. "The author used this word, but it really means that word."

Whatever it takes to hold onto your man made beliefs, DHK.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

DHK, this is a perfect example of how it is necessary for you to change and substitute words in Scripture to make it fit your man made preconceived ideas.

Now we are told that "church" really means the Bible.

Just like "water" means Scripture, according to you.

Sola scriptura at it's best. "The author used this word, but it really means that word."

Whatever it takes to hold onto your man made beliefs, DHK.

First of let's get the Scripture straight:
1Tim.3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Secondly, the quote function is used for a purpose.
"Now we are told that "church" really means the Bible."
Please quote me. Show me where I said this. Or did you take the time to carefully read my post.

The church, the local assembly, is built upon the foundation of the Word of God (the truth). It's pillars hold up high the truth proclaiming it to all around. The church itself is the assembly of people, not the truth, not the Bible. The church has as its foundation the Bible. It's pillars hold up the Bible as a beacon for all to see. I did explain how it is built on the gospel message and we are all to take that message to all the world. It is our foundation, and the pillar of the truth. The church is the foundation of the truth. It can only be built on truth (Bible). It is the pillar of truth. A pillar bears up the structure, holds up the roof. It is the pillar of truth (Bible). The church holds up the Bible for all; it proclaims it to all. The church is the people, obviously.
DHK

 

[Jude]

The Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God. Of this there is no dispute among conservative Christians. But what follows when MAN becomes the absolute authority, when MAN determines for himself (even with Bible in hand) what is right and wrong, truth and error, regarding doctrine or morals or the way of God? I'll tell you what happens. Schism. The history of Protestantism is this: Schism begetting schism. As it was in the days of the Judges 'every man does what is right in his own eyes.' Historic doctrines/teachings are diluted or denied. The Body becomes broken. The question is,"can any part of the 'one, holy, catholic and apostolic church' invent doctrine? The fathers of the Church east and west have always said 'no'. In spite of them, the Protestant-folk, the heretical suedo-churches (such as the LDS and Jehovah's witnesses)have said 'yes'. Ignoring the utter need for doctrine (authority) to be based on a threefold test of catholicity: universality, antiquity, and consensus, every man, every congregation becomes it's own Pope. The Body becomes divided. And our witness is strained. My deepest hope and prayer is that this divided Body becomes truly one, one is heart, mind and witness. When Charles II and the English Bishops were crafting the Prayer Book in 1662, they wrote, "It is our intent, to do that which was in the Mind of Christ, as revealed to us in Holy Scripture, the actions of the Apostles, and the traditions of the Holy Catholic Church." John Newman said this of the Church of England, "As to leaving her, the thought never crossed my imagination; still I ever kept before me that there was something greater than the Established Church, and that that was the Church Catholic and Apostolic, set up from the beginning, of which she was but the local presence and the organ. She was nothing unless she was this." Any Church, yes even my own beloved Episcopal Church is nothing unless she is Catholic and Apostolic. This means a solid commitment (and understanding of)to the ecumenical councils, to the Scriptures, Creeds,
Sacraments (and yes)historic Episcopate. Without these, the Body is broken, it's witness diminished, it's fellowship divided and strained. Denominationalism begins. We all desperately need the 'authority' that lies in the knowing and living the catholic faith.

[ December 09, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Jude ]

 

[trying2understand]

DHK, when Jesus said, "... I will build my church.", exactly which singular local called out body of believers was He referring to?

Notice, Jesus said "church", not "churches".

You have three choices then:

1 Your little local church that you belong to is that singular church that Jesus was talking about.

2 Your little local church that you belong to is not that singular church that Jesus was talking about.

3 You are wrong in your undrstanding of the meaning of the word "church".

Which is it?

Ron

 

[Ps104_33]

"But for the first thousand years of her history the Church was essentially one. Five historic Patriarchal centers--Jerusalem; Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople-- formed a cohesive whole and were in full communion with each other. There were occasional heretical or schismatic groups going their own way, to be sure; but the Church was unified until the 11th century. Then, in events culminating in A.D.1054, the Roman Patriarch pulled away from the other four, pursuing his long-developing claim of universal headship of the Church."

http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
4 Or church is not a building or city (Vatican), but the universal body of Christians, the bride of Christ.

Adam, is this what Baptis's believe, that the "Church" is a "universal body of Christians"?

I thought that Baptists believe that "church" is only the "local church".

That's the problem with sola scriptura, it all gets to mean whatever you want it to mean for yourself.

Ron

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by trying2understand:


I thought that Baptists believe that "church" is only the "local church".

Ron

You thought wrong. The church means the body of believers here on earth. I know of no Baptists that profess what you wrote here.

Also, did you know that "Logos", also translates to "sound" ?

I just found that out the other day. Fascinating, eh ?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
You thought wrong. The church means the body of believers here on earth. I know of no Baptists that profess what you wrote here.

You better check with DHK on that one. I think that he will disagree with you.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Well we may have to wait. he is a late log-onner.

But I don't think he's calling a building a church. He may disagree, but I doubt it.

The local New-Testament Church is where the Body of Christ should be when the doors are opened.