Babies in Hell?

[Helen]

Thank you for your post before that, Standing. It was a needed moderating influence on the anger I felt on behalf of my son when I read Ruben's post. I'm not cursing him. I'm disgusted, but not cursing. I do pray God gives him some badly needed wisdom and compassion, though.

 

[Brice]

Helen,

I read it as well and had to read it again to make sure what I saw was real.. Just know that not everyone thinks that way and may God bless you.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Many who claim to know Christ do not show the Love that Christ gives.

The Word of God tells us in 1 John
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

The statement that Ruben made was not that of love, nor of compassion.

Unfortunately, there are many in this world who are blinded to true compassion.

 

[Brice]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brice:
...assuming go to him is referring to heaven, it’s safe to assume infants do go to Heaven.

I think that was the point, that this interpretation hangs on an assumption that cannot be proven conclusively. </font>[/QUOTE]The Trinity isn’t mentioned either, but we don’t doubt that. I used the word assumed loosely because some things in our faith are assumed based on scripture and the nature of God. The verse in II Sam. would make absolutely no sense if he wasn’t referring to heaven even if David had an incomplete understanding of it. We have an incomplete understanding of heaven, but we still “assume” it to be real. One would think that many biblical figures had an incomplete understanding of their own words. There is no logical argument against this interpretation of II Sam. 12:23 based on the simple fact that David says he will go to him. Where else would David be going?

 

[rsr]

To Sheol.

And then, perhaps, after whatever suffering is endured in Sheol, to the presence of God.

It is dangerous to try to extrapolate the teachings of the NT upon the understanding of the afterlife found in the OT.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Originally posted by Helen:
Thank you for your post before that, Standing. It was a needed moderating influence on the anger I felt on behalf of my son when I read Ruben's post. I'm not cursing him. I'm disgusted, but not cursing. I do pray God gives him some badly needed wisdom and compassion, though.

I'm not referring at all on your son's condition nor my intent to hurt your feelings with the reply I gave.

God knows my heart and I can say with all boldness that no offense meant. I'm just answering to the line of reasoning you gave me.

Who's persecuting who? And most of all, who's cursing?

You see, some people here sometimes get "mad" if they receive answers to the line of reasoning they themselves started.

God bless you.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Many who claim to know Christ do not show the Love that Christ gives.

The Word of God tells us in 1 John
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

The statement that Ruben made was not that of love, nor of compassion.

Unfortunately, there are many in this world who are blinded to true compassion.

Sir, do NOT judge, so you will not be judged.

Thanks.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ruben,

I feel it was no coincidence that you posted something about a retardate child after Helen make the statement that her child was autistic. That was very cold hearded and unkind on your behalf.

You need to apologize for your act of unkindness.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

Sister Helen:

This will be my last post in this thread; but before I leave this discussion let me say with all humility the following:

1. Nobody requested you to introduce your son
2. With his condition, nobody requested you to include him in the discussion

If you got hurt with the reply I gave you, as said, my heart is all clear of any burden. I’m just replying to the line of reasoning you just started.

Thanks to all, God bless.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Wow! that sounds nothing like an apology. Sad.

Helen, I am sorry that others are so cold.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Of course we can give a definitive reply. In Romans 7:7-11 Paul states clearly that he did not die until he knew the law and sinned against it deliberately. That means he was alive before that, and unless you are thinking that he was talking about reincarnation (!) then he was talking about spiritual life and death.

And the clear message and meaning is that a person is NOT spiritually dead until they consciously rebel. This does not mean they do not have sin natures. We all have, from birth. But the meaning is that they are covered by Christ's blood until they consciously rebel, and then and only then are they separated from God in spiritual death -- and that is what spiritual death is: separation, not unconsciousness. And that is why a person who had died spiritually MUST be born again to enter heaven. But as for the children and babes -- "Let the little children come to me and to not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14

It could not possibly belong to them if they were dead in sins and separated from God! Nor does Jesus define 'some' of the children. His statement is a blanket statement about children.

They who die young are ALL with Him in heaven. The Bible couldn't really be clearer.

Helen is very much mistaken. We cannot give a definitive reply and her basis for claiming that we can is based on a very wrong interpretation of Romans 7:7-13 and Matthew 19:14.

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

We find in Romans 7:7-13 Paul’s description of the giving of the Law to the Hebrew people and its consequences for them. He writes in the first person as a representative of the Hebrew people to whom the Law was given, and this portion of Scripture has absolutely nothing to do with Paul’s life as a child or any other time in his life. Paul, just like everyone else, had sinned in Adam as he expressly taught in Rom. 5:12-14 and the wages of sin is death. We do not find in the Scriptures an exception clause for babies and young children.

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Matt 19:14. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We find in Mark’s gospel a more full account of this teaching of Jesus,

Mark 10:13. And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
14. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
16. And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them.

Notice especially v. 15, "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

The words of Jesus here do NOT contradict the words of the Apostle Paul in his Epistle to the Romans.

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

[DeeJay]

Bro. Ruben

That post was totaly uncalled for. I think you owe Helen a real apology. But that is my opinion.

If a four year old killed his two year old brother by holding a pillow over his head because he was angery, would we give him the death penalty? Why not he commited a crime, he meets the elements for capitol punishment. Is the four year old guilty of murder then he should suffer the consiquences of his actions.

Even we can see this is unjust and unfair to punish a four year old for a crime he can not possably understand and be held accountable four. I trust my God to understand justice and fairness one billion times as much as we do.

I can not prove it I just trust my God to be just and fair. You decide if punishing infants and people who are uncapable of understanding, is just and fair.

Standing Firm

WATCH OUT, there is a tiger behind you. Looks hungery.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Will God regenerate my profoundly retarded 21 year old son in his mental capacity? His IQ is not even measureable -- he had encephalitis when he was three years old and now his IQ is officially below 20, he cannot talk, is autistic and will always be in diapers.

So you tell me.

Now, if their mental capacities will be reasonably mature, does that mean they will be held accountable for what they MIGHT have done had they been mature here?

All of mankind is held responsible for their sin in Adam, and as the Apostle Paul so eloquently wrote in Rom. 5, the proof of that fact is that all men die. And that, of course, includes infants and intellectually challenged adults. Wishful thinking will not spare any infant or any intellectually challenged adult from the judgment of God. God is sovereign and He will judge each one as He sees fit. It is not for us to know what that judgment will be for others, but for us to live our lives in obedience to Christ through faith.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DeeJay,

Thanks for the warning. I am not afraid. I had a pet tiger back in the 70's, and am accustomed to them. Ya just can't let 'em smell fear.

Sorta like the devil. If he knows yer afraid of him, he will attack. Stand fast, unmovable, unshakeable.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
1. Nobody requested you to introduce your son

So? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize people who have had children die in infancy or have older children who can't understand the Gospel might have a higher emotional investment in this issue than others, and it's reasonable to consider that.

2. With his condition, nobody requested you to include him in the discussion

And nobody requested your callous reply. Sometimes it's best to just say nothing.

If you got hurt with the reply I gave you, as said, my heart is all clear of any burden. I’m just replying to the line of reasoning you just started.

Your heart may be free from any burden, but it certainly shouldn't be. Anyone with a modicum of feeling would offer an apology for saying something so hurtful with such a lack of respect. Here's a thought: If you really think that the mentally disabled are going to hell and there is nothing anyone can do about it, it is neither productive nor kind to bluntly tell someone with a mentally disabled son this. If you really can't understand this perhaps you could find someone else to use as a human decency editor to preview your posts.

I'm just a bit miffed!

 

[billreber]

This last week, a young man in our church (age 7) was brought forward by his family to tell that he had accepted Christ as Savior and Lord. Brenden is handicapped, in that he cannot talk or control his motions. He must ride in a wheelchair at all times. When he was asked if he had accepted Jesus as his Savior, he could only moan "Yeeeea". When he was aked if he could ever lose Jesus, he could only moan "Nnnnn".

You should have heard our congregation shout praises to God! This young disabled man cannot "confess with his mouth" that Jesus is his Savior in words most would recognize, but he most assuredly did confess!

Helen, I agree with your ideas. Only God knows for sure, but I beleive infants and those who cannot understand sin are treated fairly by God. I look forward to meeting you and your son in heaven!

Bill

 

[Brother Bob]

May God Bless you, and your child Helen, also your husband.
"such is the kingdom of Heaven"

not going to be but already is

 

[saturneptune]

Helen,
The Spirit testifies in me that you are very much correct. Helen, to me, if we have Christ in us, then our gut instinct prevails.

Craig and Ruben, you are a couple of cold hearted people that have a very distorted image of the God and Jesus I serve. Your comments and lack of love make my stomach turn. I will keep the thoughts going through my mind about you two at this moment to myself.

 

[OldRegular]

Helen

I believe that you are correct, not only about children but about your son.

May God continue to bless you.

 

[Brother Bob]

The responsibility of sin of all mankind is to die a natural death because Adam sinned in the beginning but what we are talking about here is the second death which is because of the sins we personally committed and to do that you must have been taught by the Spirit that you are a sinner and you must repent of those sins and believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.
I can't find a scripture where the bible is talking directly to a little child, can you?