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Babies in Hell?
- Thread starter SuperBaptist
- Start date
I'm not following. Jesus was telling the RYR (who had knowledge of the Law, I might add) to come to Him in faith. What knowledge of the Law do babies posses? It sounds like you are espousing a works salvation, that man can come to the Father apart from Christ by keeping commandments. Sinners are saved by grace through faith. Period. There is no other way. Infants and babies are not sinners, though. A sinners is defined as one who commits sin. The phrase "I'm not a sinner because I sin, I sin because I'm a sinner" is bunk. This same logic doesn't apply to actual sins. A murder is a murderer because they have murdered, a rapist a rapist because they have commited rape, etc.
I agree that babies are corrupted...that's because of sin entering the world. It is appointed unto all ONCE to die. This is the curse on our physical bodies, infants included.
However, if they "kept His commandments" there needs to be more revealed. In order to keep a commandment there needs to be knowledge of that commandment. This requires the mental capacity to think and reason. Also, in order to keep a commandment, the option exists to break that commandment, too.
...or all babies are NOT sinners, and Christ the mediator on their behalf bridges the gap between humanity and God. Christ still receives all the praise. His death and resurrection ensured that everyone (remember...ALL are appointed once to die) can also share in the same. If He would have failed on the cross, all humanity would be damned by default.
ReformedBaptist said:
...and so goes the "other dispensation" of salvation I mentioned earlier. NOBODY is saved because they are elect. Everyone falls under 2 camps: guilty or not guilty. Sinners are guilty, infants are not. Sinners require faith in Christ, infants do not.Spurgeon said:
Amy.G said:Such a tired old line. Everyone who disagrees with someone else's interpretation thinks God is a liar.
Really? Jesus told the Lawyer whoever perfectly kept the commandments, would receive eternal life. If someone DENIES that, they are calling Him a liar. Let me show you...
ME: "I have a red car"
YOU: "No you don't"
See? In the scenario above, you just called me a liar. Since God, MULTIPLE times, throughout the Bible, states that those who keep the commandments will receive eternal life, live, etc., to say OTHERWISE is to call God a liar.
Have babies lied? Nope. Have they stolen? Nope. Have they hated anyone? Nope. Have they ever put anything above God? Nope.
They have perfectly kept the commandments. Therefore the Blood of Christ is applied for their sin nature, and they are saved by Grace, just like the rest of us.
Are the Old Testament Saints saved by works? No. Neither are Babies. The fact that they keep the commandments perfectly would do them NO GOOD: their sin nature would still condemn them as a thing worthy of eternal punishment, yet Christ's atoning blood pays for it, and they are therefore saved by Grace, just like everyone else.
Anyone that states salvation MUST be according to faith, with faith being something one "chooses", automatically eliminates babies from eternity in Heaven. Babies cannot "choose" to have faith.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Somehow I can't See Messiah Yeshua supervising the frying of babies.
Rev 14:10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
The same shall drinke of the wine of ye wrath of God, yea, of the pure wine, which is powred into the cup of his wrath, and he shalbe tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angels, and before the Lambe.
God prohibits humans from bruning babies. Note that bruning babies is compareed by co-location to witchcraft & the occult arts. Both are abominations before the Lord God.
Deut 13:10-12 (NIV):
No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery,
11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead.
12 Everyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and the Lord your God is driving out the nations before you because of these detestable things.
Ed's Conclusion: No babies in Hell or Lake of Fire. If you find a verse that appears to assign babies to such a vile eternal fate - look again, you may have misunderstootd???
Rev 14:10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
The same shall drinke of the wine of ye wrath of God, yea, of the pure wine, which is powred into the cup of his wrath, and he shalbe tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angels, and before the Lambe.
God prohibits humans from bruning babies. Note that bruning babies is compareed by co-location to witchcraft & the occult arts. Both are abominations before the Lord God.
Deut 13:10-12 (NIV):
No one among you is to make his son or daughter pass through the fire, practice divination, tell fortunes, interpret omens, practice sorcery,
11 cast spells, consult a medium or a familiar spirit, or inquire of the dead.
12 Everyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and the Lord your God is driving out the nations before you because of these detestable things.
Ed's Conclusion: No babies in Hell or Lake of Fire. If you find a verse that appears to assign babies to such a vile eternal fate - look again, you may have misunderstootd???
Brother Bob
New Member
Babies are born to die naturally, but mostly they don't die as soon as they are born. They are also born after Adam and when they come to know God and Glorify Him not it is sin.Havensdad said:
If the natural death come later in their lives, why does not the spiritual death come later in their lives. How come you accept the natural death coming later, but yet demand that the soul is dead at birth. Don't make sense. Where there is no Law, there is no transgression. The Law come to Apostle Paul, later in life. He was not born with it, for he said I was once "alive" without the law, the commandments came and I died. Same is true with us all. God is not respect of persons.
The soul that sinneth shall die. How could it die if it was already dead??
Why would someone demand that the soul of man die at birth after "Adam", and the body die sometime later in life, after "Adam". Where is the reasoning??
BBob,
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ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
I will only make a few comments, but will not debate the issue. That the infant is gulitless is refuted easily by the fact that the child dies. The wage of sin is death.
We keep the Law through Christ. He fulfilled the Law. We are righteous in Him, not works.Havensdad said:
Jhn 6:28
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Babies do not keep the commandments. You can't "keep" that which you do not know exits. They have committed no sin, which makes them innocent. They have not transgressed the Law. Sin is disobedience with knowledge
Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Please provide scripture that states that a "sin nature" is condemned as sin.
I have never seen anyone on this board say that babies must have faith. In fact, quite the opposite has been stated many times. Babies do not have the intellect required to have faith. They also cannot break laws that they are not aware of. Sin is a willful rebellion against God, having the knowledge that one is rebelling against their creator.
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ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Amy,
If the infant doesn't have sin (imputed) what is your explaination for why it dies?
If the infant doesn't have sin (imputed) what is your explaination for why it dies?
We die because we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, but we are not held accountable for his sin. We are accountable for our own sin. We die spiritually when we commit sin.ReformedBaptist said:
The soul that sins shall die. God makes it clear that we are never punished for someone else's sin. We do not inherit Adam's guilt. Our guilt is our own. We inherit the consequence of his sin, physical death.
God does whatsoever He pleases.
If it pleases Him to regenerate an individual (infant) apart from any other requirement but His "sovereign will" and/or His "decree" then He is able to do that. Hey, wait a minute...
AOBTW, what about John the Baptist who was
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
If it pleases Him to regenerate an individual (infant) apart from any other requirement but His "sovereign will" and/or His "decree" then He is able to do that. Hey, wait a minute...
AOBTW, what about John the Baptist who was
...filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Does the Spirit of God fill an unregenerate?
Did John the Baptist have faith and repentance in His mother's womb?
HankD
Does the Spirit of God fill an unregenerate?
Did John the Baptist have faith and repentance in His mother's womb?
HankD
Brother Bob
New Member
Wages of sin is the "second" death.ReformedBaptist said:
The natural death is an appointment.
BBob,
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Brother Bob said:
Where is the "second" death stated or implied in the text of Scripture? How does this interpretation work with the judgment passed upon Adam and with his posterity, especially as it relates to the teaching in Romans concerning Christ, being the Second Adam?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
How then is Jesus the Second Adam. If we do not inherit (or rather have imputed) guilt, how is it that we can inherit (or rather have imputed) righteousness?
We die once physically. We die spiritually when we sin willfully, just as Adam did. Those who have died spiritually (have sinned) will die the second death (which is eternal) in the lake of fire if they have not been born again from the first spiritual death. Babies have not died spiritually because they have committed no sin. They do not need to be re-born because they are not spiritually dead.ReformedBaptist said:
Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Jesus is the second Adam, who came from the Father (as did Adam), had no earthly father (as Adam) but lived a sinless life because He was always obedient to the Father reconciling us to the relationship with God that the first Adam had.ReformedBaptist said:
But even Jesus' body died because of the consequence of Adam's sin.
Brother Bob
New Member
Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.ReformedBaptist said:
unbelief is enough!
Rev 20:6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Hath a part in Christ!
BBob,
I think we too often have the wrong look at death. I think we view it differently than what it truly teaches us.
We must not forget that Christ knew no sin but became sin. I see death as being cutt off from something. When a person dies naturally, they are seperated from the natural living. When a person dies spiritually, they are seperated from God. I believe this is why Christ became sin and said "Why has thou forsaken Me".
Only life is found in Christ Jesus. Death is just the opposite. Natural death is an appointment but the death the Bible speaks of (Most of the time) is a seperation from Christ. The second death is an eternal seperation.
The wages of sin is death... a seperation from God.
Just my thoughts.... God bless.