• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Bacon eaters! Do you see?

Do you see that God forbid the eating of swine in Lev 11?

  • yes

    Votes: 10 58.8%
  • no

    Votes: 7 41.2%

  • Total voters
    17
Status
Not open for further replies.

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:
We both agree that all makind are sinners in their lost condition.

Having said that --

Paul argues the opposite point. In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Just when you wanted Paul's council to the saints to be "what matters is not paying attention to the Word of God if you find commandments of God there".

He stresses the importance of the law.

Indeed. Thus your "ignore God's Law" argument seems to have failed.

How is it then that Deut 22 could in any way help you make an actual Bible argument to the contrary?


--Bob dismisses it altogether as not being important for the Greatest Commandment of love is more important.

In Matt 22 Christ quotes Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 as being the foundation for all of God's Word - all of the Law and the prophets.

You appear to claim that all of scripture was deleted and replaced by Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 so that the Acts 17:11 "sola scriptura" method seen in practice "Studying the scrptures to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were so" is made void.

Why go after the sola-scriptura method just now DHK after you have upheld it in previous discussions?



What amazing hypocrisy is shown here.
Pork is as important as love.
Clothing is not as important as love.
Pay attention to your pork but not to your clothing.

In 1Cor 6 Paul said that your body is the temple of God - and God would destroy those who destroy that temple.

Thus God's command not to eat rats, cats and mice -- which you claim is a doctrine of a demon - cannot be "bent" the way you appear to hope.

Have you considered that point - so far?

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:
I am curious how you justify making stuff up out of thin air and then accusing me of thinking whatever you manage to dream up.

Is that something you learn over time where you live?

Just curious.

(BTW - your claim that the OP has some evidence proof or even statement about SDAs claiming to never sin did not pan out -- were you thinking about some other thread? Or are you simply trying to derail this one even though it is your own thread?)

Steaver said:
This would come from a known SDA supporters words and application of scripture to a question asked.

Is it your wild claim that I can take any hear-say I have ever heard from any baptist in my entire life - and accuse all baptists here of such statements - no quotes, no information just random accusation in my posts?

If so - is that a skill you develop over time - or did it suddenly come to you as you looked at the cat and rat sandwich subject?

Curious minds want to know.
:jesus:

in Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In your efforts to bend and wrench the discussion such that anyone eating a rat sandwich is considered to be "lost" by someone you imagined - I already gave this answer


Bob said:
Quote:

Notice the ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them --

Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41

You then proposed an "I don't care what God says - I will do what I want anyway" scenario (something Catholics typically do NOT do in their worship using images and something that most people here do not claim to do) -- and I responded

Bob said:
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,


You then confirmed your own view that eating rat sandwiches is "an act of rebellion" -

Originally Posted by steaver
Indeed I get the idea and it helps a great deal. :thumbs:

I must say I stand corrected in my thoughts. I thought for sure you would not be willing to say that the person in my hypothetical would be going to hell.

This is exactly what I purposed to expose in the SDA teachings. The SDA believes that even though a person has faith in God and has been born of God this faith is void if the person dies in an act of rebellion against God (sin).

This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So then I took your "that Bible is NOT the Gospel" idea and showed your error

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Turns out that Jesus WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when HE said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" - Matt 7

Turns out Paul WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said in Romans 2 "according to my gospel" -- God will judge without partiality such that "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

Turns out John WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

Those who would accuse John and Paul and Christ of preaching "another gospel" as you have done - are simply missing one or two glaring and not-so-subtle details of scripture.

Your "then you must be sinless to be saved" nonsequiter does not work at all in that case.

Hope that helps. Try to avoid going there - and your argument is that much more Biblically accurate- so a win-win.

In your recent post - you pretend as if this conclusion is helping you with the wild accusation that SDAs do not sin and that those who eat rat sandwiches are all said to be lost by SDAs. A direct contradiction of my "only God knows the state of the soul" arguments in that other thread.

Again - your efforts to bend and wrench what was said to your usages is more than a little impressive.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by steaver

SDA's look upon me according to my answers as hell bound. My belief in Christ to them is a lie.

How does the board feel about these SDA standards?

To which I replied

I am curious how you justify making stuff up out of thin air and then accusing me of thinking whatever you manage to dream up.

Is that something you learn over time where you live?

Just curious.

(BTW - your claim that the OP has some evidence proof or even statement about SDAs claiming to never sin did not pan out -- were you thinking about some other thread? Or are you simply trying to derail this one even though it is your own thread?)

And then you make the extreme bend-and-wrench claim about the OP statement of yours -

It is your own words! No thin air, maybe some hot air, but taken directly from an SDA. That would be YOU!

Sorry Steaver - you did not quote me in that OP. In fact my argument made dozens of times on that other thread (as you very well know) is that no one can judge another and that God alone knows the state of a person who is not keeping some part of His Word.

I gave you the example of Catholics that use images in worship and pointed out that even though this is not in accordance with God's Word - the 2nd Commandment - it does not mean that all Catholics are not saved. I showed the James 4 principle "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not TO HIM it is sin".

You whined and complained almost non-stop that I refuse to flatly condemn all Christians if in any case they were not keeping God's Law.

Now you completely fabricate your own "story" in the OP and hope to pin it on me?

Your methods here have been far more transparent that you might have at first imagined.

again - is this a skill you learn over time??

Help us know just how to avoid learning to do such a thing.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The Apostle John writes -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostle John
1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


And Steaver immediately complains...
steaver
In one breath you say one must keep the law else they are liars


Take it up with scripture -- you have chosen to place yourself in opposition to the sola-scriptura position merely by reason of "complaint".

Feel free to explain why you are addressing me as if I wrote 1 John 2 - instead of phrasing your question "GODS' WORD says we are liars if we claim to know Christ and yet do not keep His Commandments".

Steaver said:
This is not a question, but since you have extended an offer of freedom here I will help you out.

1 John 2 is the perfect word of God. The SDA application of this passage against the grace of God is an abomination and constitutes "another gospel".

A+ on Ranting.

F- on actual Bible exegesis so far.

(Just trying to help you focus)

;)

The "commandments" spoken of here include confession to those commandments we transgress as Christians.

While it is wonderful that they "include" a great many things.

The text specifically says to "WALK as Jesus WALKED" (hint we don't see him doing a lot of "confessing" so the focus IN THE TEXT is NOT primarily about the issue of confessing but rather - walking in obedience.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Also notice that John writing in 1John 2 about Christ's commandments - is the same person writing in John 14:15 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - pre cross.

Thus CHRISTIANS are to KEEP those commandments.

But recall that this "YOU SAY we must..." argument is being made as you announce that we can NOT KEEP God's Commandments.

You have yet to address the context of your own spin.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If A Christian could NOT disobey a known commandment there would be no commandment given to "sin not" and a solution given for the transgession.

Correction. John does not say "I write these things because you MUST SIN". He said "I write these things that you SIN NOT". Which flatly contradicts your own argument that born-again saints MUST sin.

Furthermore John adds "AND IF anyone DOES sin" not as the primary model for Christians to be helplessly enslaved to sin - as you seem to imagine.

You have spun the text on its head to say something like "YOU MUST sin therefore I command you to CONFESS and that is the only Commandment that Christ even has" - which is total nonsense.

There is NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE - where Jesus said "my only commandment is for you to confess your non-stop sinning - and then go on sinning".

Sorry to have to conclude - that your efforts to spin 1John 2 - failed at the very start.

Recall that John speaks of the saints "keeping the Commandments" of Christ in 1John 2 - and in Rev 12 and Rev 14 he shows the saints "KEEPING the Commandments of God" - because as it turns out - John 1:1-4 John actually thinks Christ IS GOD.

And of course - :godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is it your wild claim that I can take any hear-say I have ever heard from any baptist in my entire life - and accuse all baptists here of such statements - no quotes, no information just random accusation in my posts?


in Christ,

Bob

That SDA I speak of is YOU and I gave your quote many times.

BobRyan;

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --


They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

I see you have posted several lengthy replies so it will take me some time to read over and respond to each one.

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I also notice that even though I have been answering your questions as you demanded, you still have not practiced what you preach and done any responding to my questions. Jesus scolded the Pharisees for placing burdens on others while refusing to do the same things they asked of others.

I assume you are aware that hypocrisy is a sin.

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In your efforts to bend and wrench the discussion such that anyone eating a rat sandwich is considered to be "lost" by someone you imagined - I already gave this answer

Originally Posted by Bob
Quote:

Notice the ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them --

Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41



in Christ,

Bob

The OP has no interest in those who are "blind". Stay on point. The OP is speaking only of those who "say they see". This would make your above quote here off topic.

You then proposed an "I don't care what God says - I will do what I want anyway" scenario (something Catholics typically do NOT do in their worship using images and something that most people here do not claim to do) -- and I responded

Originally Posted by Bob
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

The hypothetical gave a bit more detail than that and your answer is dead on SDA doctrine which condemns the person professing to be Christian to hell for "seeing and disobeying" any single command that the SDA chooses to be applicable to a Christian.

You say the SDA cannot and does not judge the final heart matter of a person. Yet here you make it very clear that according to your pov of scripture a person who willingly chooses to disobey a commandment of God is a liar and Christ does not live in this person's heart. That is passing a final judgment. there is no way out of it.

BTW, how are you doing with your perfect walk with Christ? Care to answer my questions yet? Or are you choosing to remain a Pharisee?

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

As you keep saying of me....still waiting......... (you seriously have a Pharisee problem, Jesus calls this sin)

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In your recent post - you pretend as if this conclusion is helping you with the wild accusation that SDAs do not sin and that those who eat rat sandwiches are all said to be lost by SDAs. A direct contradiction of my "only God knows the state of the soul" arguments in that other thread.

Again - your efforts to bend and wrench what was said to your usages is more than a little impressive.

in Christ,

Bob

I personally beleive (I know rather) ALL sin, whether Christian or not. So your red-herring is not working.

Stay on point! Which is that the SDA preach that a person is not saved if that person purposefully breaks a commandment of God, any one, that the SDA interprets as binding for a person to enter eternal life. This is Christ plus the law equals salvation. Exactly what Paul scolded the Galatians for preaching and said it was "another gospel" a "preverted gospel" and that those preaching it were accursed. Pretty strong warning from Paul. I would step back and take heed my friend.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is "Christ trumps the law". This means that anyone born of God through Christ cannot be condemned by anything the law throws at them whether real or perceived. For no one can keep the law with the perfection required.

The perverted gospel Paul speaks of and the SDA preaches is "The law trumps Christ". This means that even though a person has been born of God and has faith in Christ the breaking of the law annuls Christ and prevents this person from eternal life.

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry Steaver - you did not quote me in that OP. In fact my argument made dozens of times on that other thread (as you very well know) is that no one can judge another and that God alone knows the state of a person who is not keeping some part of His Word.

in Christ,

Bob

Here is the OP quote of you again. Tell me that it is not your quote again...

Originally Posted by Bob
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

This quote IS passing a judgment on one who professes to be Christian, sees what God has said in the law and does not keep the law on all points known. You cannot escape it. Your answer shows the SDA's attitude of anyone who sees Lev 11 for example and chooses to eat swine anyways. Maybe you don't really comprehend what your SDA answers reveal. Out of the heart the mouth speaks.

I gave you the example of Catholics that use images in worship and pointed out that even though this is not in accordance with God's Word - the 2nd Commandment - it does not mean that all Catholics are not saved. I showed the James 4 principle "to him that KNOWS to do right and does it not TO HIM it is sin".

Let's stay on point. I am not concerned with those who "do not see". That was another thread. This thread is about those who "do see" and choose not to obey.

I think we could get further here in this thread if you recognized the point of the OP. YOu keep going back and posting and reposting points that do not advance the topic of this thread.

Here it is, "Those who see what God's word says and choose not to obey."

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The text specifically says to "WALK as Jesus WALKED" (hint we don't see him doing a lot of "confessing" so the focus IN THE TEXT is NOT primarily about the issue of confessing but rather - walking in obedience.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Also notice that John writing in 1John 2 about Christ's commandments - is the same person writing in John 14:15 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - pre cross.

Thus CHRISTIANS are to KEEP those commandments.


in Christ,

Bob

More interesting SDA heart felt attitude. So how are you doing walking as Jesus walked?

I noticed you pointed out that He had no confessing to do which means He walked sinless. Is this how you walk with Jesus Bob? Are you walking as Jesus walked?

Answering my questions would help me understand how you follow 1 John 2.

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

Use yourself as an example and tell me how you never choose to break one of God's commandments and thus never need any confession, walking just like Jesus walked.

:jesus:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Indeed. Thus your "ignore God's Law" argument seems to have failed.

How is it then that Deut 22 could in any way help you make an actual Bible argument to the contrary?
Because it is a part of the (as is Lev.11).
Lev. 11 is a part of the law which you keep. Deut. 22 is a law which you ignore or refuse to keep. You are a hypocrite in that you choose to pick parts of the law--the ones you want to obey, and the others you want to ignore or disobey.

Why do you ignore my questions?
How would the law be obeyed by the Israelites?
How would the law be obeyed today if applied in a practical way?
In Matt 22 Christ quotes Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 as being the foundation for all of God's Word - all of the Law and the prophets.
And does he quote specifically the dietary law? No. Thus your hypocrisy is still showing.
You appear to claim that all of scripture was deleted and replaced by Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 so that the Acts 17:11 "sola scriptura" method seen in practice "Studying the scrptures to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were so" is made void.
You ignore Deut.22:11 to your sola scriptura. It is just as valid as Lev.11. If you include other Pauline epistles you find that the law is abolished, nailed to the cross, is valid no more except as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We are no longer under the law--which includes the dietary law.
Why go after the sola-scriptura method just now DHK after you have upheld it in previous discussions?
I have never left it. You have. And I believe you have left it because you have been influenced by the writings of the Ellen G. White, even though you will not admit it.
In 1Cor 6 Paul said that your body is the temple of God - and God would destroy those who destroy that temple.
Pork is one of the safest foods in the nation to eat. If you really believed what you just posted you would stay away from sugar, salt, "junk food," saturated fats, most processed foods, etc. Do you live like that? Do you live on a farm and eat of the produce thereof? Do you practice what you preach? Pork, that is sold in the stores, is one of the safest and healthiest meats on the market, safer and healthier even then red meat such as ground beef.
Thus God's command not to eat rats, cats and mice -- which you claim is a doctrine of a demon - cannot be "bent" the way you appear to hope.
I hope that God would call you to be a missionary to Thailand where cat or dog would be regular fare. :) Paul said

1 Corinthians 9:21-22 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

But you would disobey that command if God called you to Thailand, and would not be able to win souls in that nation. You would not be able to become "like the Thais that you might gain the Thais that you might by all means save some."
That is the meaning of the verse even if it means eating cat and dog. It is not the cat and dog that is unclean.

Mark 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Have you considered that point - so far?
Have you considered the above point so far. I think not!!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:
Is it your wild claim that I can take any hear-say I have ever heard from any baptist in my entire life - and accuse all baptists here of such statements - no quotes, no information just random accusation in my posts?

Steaver said:
That SDA I speak of is YOU and I gave your quote many times.

Sadly - you provided no quote at all from me that matched you wild claims in your wild claims in the OP.

Care to have another go at it - or do you want me to copy even more of my quotes from that other thread that flatly contradict your OP?

I do have more you know.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In your efforts to bend and wrench the discussion such that anyone eating a rat sandwich is considered to be "lost" by someone you imagined - I already gave this answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Quote:

Notice the ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them --

Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41


The OP has no interest in those who are "blind".

I certainly agree that your OP needs to sweep this position that I took repeatedly on that other thread - under the rug - hoping the readers here will never see it - and then compare that position to the wild claims you make in your OP here.

Finally - you have taken a position that does make some sense.

How is that working for you BTW? Trying to misdirect your readers away from the information that I keep quoting from the thread that directly refutes your claims here?

You say the SDA cannot and does not judge the final heart matter of a person.

Indeed - only God knows individual cases.

You have repeatedly tried to place yourself in the worst possible position claiming to be in open rebellion against God's Word. I keep saying that I doubt your condition is as dire as you claim.

Sadly - your efforts to continually misdirect and misrepresent the details of the discussion will mean that I simply have to post here - the same thing I posted there about my not believing that your condition is as hopeless as you pretend for the sake of your position on eating rats and diseased animal flesh.


Steaver said:
Yet here you make it very clear that according to your pov of scripture a person who willingly chooses to disobey a commandment of God is a liar and Christ does not live in this person's heart.

I realize you think you are doing some kind of exegesis into 1John 2. But allow me to remind you - that is not even close to exegesis.

I gave you the details pointing to John's context for what he means when he references "Walking and Christ walked" and "Keeping His commandments".

In response to your suggestion that we just "pretend" like 1John 2 only talks about repentance I brought out the following inconvenient details found in the text itself.

The text specifically says to "WALK as Jesus WALKED" (hint we don't see him doing a lot of "confessing" so the focus IN THE TEXT is NOT primarily about the issue of confessing but rather - walking in obedience.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Also notice that John writing in 1John 2 about Christ's commandments - is the same person writing in John 14:15 "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" - pre cross.

Thus CHRISTIANS are to KEEP those commandments.


You simply dumped the entire line of Bible study at that point and settled for whining and complaining - and empty accusations piled on top of each other.

Let me know when/if you have any interest at all in doing solid Bible study into the 1John 2 text that you are so dead set on ignoring.



:godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sadly - you provided no quote at all from me that matched you wild claims in your wild claims in the OP.

Care to have another go at it -
in Christ,

Bob

Ok,

Originally Posted by Bob
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

:jesus:
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I gave you the details pointing to John's context for what he means when he references "Walking and Christ walked" and "Keeping His commandments".

in Christ,

Bob

Still waiting for some answers....

So how are you doing walking as Jesus walked?

I noticed you pointed out that He had no confessing to do which means He walked sinless. Is this how you walk with Jesus Bob? Are you walking as Jesus walked?

Answering my questions would help me understand how you follow 1 John 2.

How long have you been a Christian?

Have you known a commandment of God since and chose to break it?

How long now since your last known sin of choice, knowing the commandment prior to the sin?

Use yourself as an example and tell me how you never choose to break one of God's commandments and thus never need any confession, walking just like Jesus walked.

:jesus:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
You then proposed what you called a hypothetical "I don't care what God says - I will do what I want anyway" scenario (something Catholics typically do NOT do in their worship using images and something that most people here do not claim to do) -- and I responded

I gave this response to the hypothetical scenario

Bob said:
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I then responded to your point by saying --

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

Since you had "nowhere to go" with that Gal 5 point on the fruits of the Spirit - you have been careful to try and sweep it under the rug, and to settle for complaining that I am contrasting the hypothetical open rebellion against God with the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

I then provide examples of Christians who though they can clearly "read" the Ten Commandments - still choose to worship with images "anyway".

I point out that your "yes but I see myself in open rebellion" aspect in your hypothetical scenario - does not fit the Catholic case.

Bob said:
You then proposed an "I don't care what God says - I will do what I want anyway" scenario (something Catholics typically do NOT do in their worship using images and something that most people here do not claim to do) -- and I responded




Steaver said:
Let's stay on point. I am not concerned with those who "do not see". That was another thread. This thread is about those who "do see" and choose not to obey.

I think we could get further here in this thread if you recognized the point of the OP.

As I stated in the previous thread - I doubt that your case is as dire as you like to paint it.

And as I stated above - the Catholic Christians "Can READ the 2nd commandment" - but they typically do not declare of themselves "I am in open rebellion against the commandment -- I hope God likes that".

Here it is, "Those who see what God's word says and choose not to obey."

As I said - that is not the fruit of the Spirit listed in Gal 5 and it is not the "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" position of Christ in John 14 and in John 15:14.

I doubt that your case is as dire as you like to pretend.

in Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here it is, "Those who see what God's word says and choose not to obey."

As I said - that is not the fruit of the Spirit listed in Gal 5 and it is not the "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" position of Christ in John 14 and in John 15:14.

I doubt that your case is as dire as you like to pretend.

in Christ,

Bob

I already confessed to this board and you that I DO SEE God forbid swine eating in Lev 11. Seven others on this board confess that they DO SEE God forbid swine eating in Lev 11. I still CHOOSE to eat swine and I suspect those other seven do as well.

Your response is to post scriptures that declare me hell bound for my choice no matter if I have called on Jesus Christ as Saviour or not. For according to your response I am a liar for saying I trust in Christ and choose to break the Lev 11 commandment on swine.

It is your doctrine, why do you try to disown it?

:jesus:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Bob
We both agree that all makind are sinners in their lost condition.

Having said that --

Paul argues the opposite point. In 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Just when you wanted Paul's council to the saints to be "what matters is not paying attention to the Word of God if you find commandments of God there".

DHK said:

He stresses the importance of the law.

Bob said:
Indeed. Thus your "ignore God's Law" argument seems to have failed.

How is it then that Deut 22 could in any way help you make an actual Bible argument to the contrary?

So again - your argument seems to be going nowhere given that you agree that Paul himself is stressing the point for saved saints in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

What is your solution?

Quote:

DHK said:
--Bob dismisses it altogether as not being important for the Greatest Commandment of love is more important.



Bob said:
You have brushed aside a few key details.

In Matt 22 Christ quotes Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 as being the foundation for all of God's Word - all of the Law and the prophets.

The foundation of a home is not what destroys it - it is what supports it.

The sola scriptura method works because these two rock-solid laws serve as the FOUNDATION for Scripture.

Christ said "on these two commandments depend ALL the law AND the prophets" -

You appear to claim that all of scripture was deleted and replaced by Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 so that the Acts 17:11 "sola scriptura" method seen in practice "Studying the scrptures to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were so" is made void.

Why go after the sola-scriptura method just now DHK after you have upheld it in previous discussions?




Because it is a part of the (as is Lev.11).
Lev. 11 is a part of the law which you keep.

That is not even remotely a Bible position on anything.

I am asking you to show us the Bible method you are using to declare that "all the law and the prophets" (scripture) that rest on the foundation of the Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 commandents are destroyed by the very thing serving as their foundation.

The fact that I don't eat rat sandwiches is not even remotely a "Bible method" for you to use in explaining your views.

Why leap off into such nonsense?


Deut. 22 is a law which you ignore or refuse to keep. You are a hypocrite

Again you show how little you know about that subject - or what I do -even though I have told you three times.

No matter - because once again it does nothing to "explain" your views.

In Matt 22 Christ said "ALL the Law on the Prophets" were depending on the Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 law of love.

Then we get yet another innexplicable response in your post.

And does he quote specifically the dietary law? No. Thus your hypocrisy

You seem to be stuck in a "no Bible answer" mode.

Christ in Matt 22 is speaking before the cross - and by every measure God's Word is VALID while Christ is speaking in Matt 22.

Christ said ALL the Law and the prophets rest on the foundation of the Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 law.

Guess what books those laws are found in ?

Deut and Leviticus turn out to be the very books you are trying so hard to get deleted.

These books are being upheld by Christ as authorotative scripture.

Worse yet for your view - the Matt 22 teaching is being reported by Matthew decades AFTER the resurrection - STILL the valid teaching for NT saints!

DHK said:
If you include other Pauline epistles you find that the law is abolished, nailed to the cross

Hint. NO TEXT says "The Law of God is abolished".

NO TEXt says "The Commandments of God are abolished".

NO TEXT says "the Law of God is nailed to the Cross".

But we DO have Paul saying "What MATTERS IS KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And we have John saying in Rev 12 and in Rev 14 of NT saints they "keep the Commandments of God".

DHK said:
, is valid no more except as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We are no longer under the law--which includes the dietary law.

IF the LAW of Gal 5 includes "The Word of God" as given in scripture - including as you say above the Laws against eating rats - and if that law is showing the lost person - (as you seem to say above ) their need of a Savior because they are found to be violators of God's Law

Then you just shot down your own argument because in Romans 6 Paul affirms that we are to OBEY that law that defines sin INSTEAD of simply "engaging in more sin".


DHK said:
I hope that God would call you to be a missionary to Thailand where cat or dog would be regular fare. :) Paul said

Adventists have a great number of missionaries there as it turns out.

No eating rats and cats for our missionaries though - because for them - the Word of God has value even in that area of the World.


But you would disobey that command if God called you to Thailand, and would not be able to win souls in that nation.

Turns out - our missionaries do not have to become prostitutes to evangelize them and do not have to become murderers to evangelize in prison ministries -- and do not have to eat rats to show people that do it rats - that there is a better healthier way of life.

And that method is working very well - to this very day.

In fact we have a great number of people in Asia turning to light and away from eating cats and rats and away from the worship of false gods. We need not worship their gods "to win them over" - as you seem to suggest in your bending of 1Cor 9.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I already confessed to this board and you that I DO SEE God forbid swine eating in Lev 11.

Most Catholics I have talked with also claim that they have read the 2nd commandment forbiding the use of images in worship.

Shall I keep bringing this point up until you see that your argument needs more work.


Steaver said:
Your response is to post scriptures that declare me hell bound for my choice

I am not here to tell you how to read scripture. The Holy Spirit does that - not me.

I point to the scriptures - I explain valid methods of Bible study - I leave it to each person and their relationship to God to determine if they are open to be convicted of "sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Not me.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top